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Former believer - pastor comes out as non-believer

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Postby humphreys » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:55 pm

"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby humphreys » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:14 pm

I think the most interesting part was his implication that many other religious "authorities" likely have significant doubts themselves, and that it is a constant inner battle between absolute belief and real doubt.

I suspect this to be true of Christians in general, and, perhaps, with a sizable chunk of atheists and agnostics with regards to belief in some kind of higher power too.

What needs to be done is to get rid of the concept of "faith" and open up and admit the doubts and questions about religion and God belief honestly, but most religions are of course completely against such an approach. We are simply supposed to have faith and trust that we are right, and not test God.

Imagine how many less lives would be lost if we could all accept that we might be wrong. Far fewer suicide bombers would kill themselves for their belies, for instance, if they recognized the real possibility that they could be completely mistaken and/or mislead about everything.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby OraProNobis » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:12 pm

Humphreys wrote:
What needs to be done is to get rid of the concept of "faith" and open up and admit the doubts and questions about religion and God belief honestly, but most religions are of course completely against such an approach. We are simply supposed to have faith and trust that we are right, and not test God.

Imagine how many less lives would be lost if we could all accept that we might be wrong. Far fewer suicide bombers would kill themselves for their belies, for instance, if they recognized the real possibility that they could be completely mistaken and/or mislead about everything.


I can't speak for all religions Humphreys, because I don't know much about what they actually teach, but I think as Christians, and as a Catholic we are allowed to question things. I know I have had many questions for priests, as well as lay people, and have been answered with consideration and insight, and at times not answered to my satisfaction.

I have on my own asked God questions, and even gotten very angry with Him at what I thought were injustices. Over time many of these questions have been answered, in ways I had not expected, and I have come to understand that Gods wisdom, is not my wisdom , and He sees the merit and reason for sufferings in a much deeper and truer light than I did.

But all of that aside, I agree with you 100% that we should not be afraid to voice our concerns and questions , about any beliefs. To stifle those real inner questions that cause us concern is to deny a very valid gift given to us , in my opinion.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:17 pm

Nobody ever said that Priests or the clergy do not loose their Faith for one reason or another. Everyday Priests loose their calling, Nuns leave there calling, and other clergy leaves their calling. This Pastor was mainly questioning why if there is a God why does God permit so much suffering in the world, giving starvation as one example. That he had a difficult time with some of the theology. Everyone on a day to day basis questions, and has doubts about thier Faith, which is something atheists would love to irraticate becasue they can not debate the intangable, or something that can not be proven with hard scientific proof, like Faith. There is no physical test for it, or laboratory way to proove it, or disproove it, and it can not be measured.

This is a issue of one person who has lost Faith, and his doubts overcame his Faith. HIs doubts, Dawkins Doubts, who he seems to have aligned with, are his own doubts, and do not represent my doubts, or the doubts of those who were in his congregation. Did he ever say that he was convinced beyond any reasonable doubt God did not exist? Or did he talk about no longer being able to accept certain parts of the theology, such as the Virgin Birth of Jesus, as one thing he mentioned. He also did not disavow all scripture, he actually supported it, unlike you and the the Dawkins followers.

As for God and world suffering, I see most churches and religions have very active programs, or missions, for humanitarian efforts to feed these starving he mentions, both local people and abroad. They airlift food, water, clothing, medicines, and also send people to everypart of the world in efforts to do these things, all of which would not be happening if it were not for the church or religion they are part of. Collectively I'm sure Billions of Dollars in aid are provided by churches and religions, who are doing work in God's name. I'm not too sure Richard Dawkins can make any claim to such a worldwide effort of Atheists doing the same thing. So I think the Paster is wrong to blame God for the worlds misery, when the free will of man is the cause. The Governments the starving people are in have failed those people, yet worldwide religions group togather for these humanitarian missions. That to me is God working through his believers to aid the suffering.

Most interresting Humphreys is your willingness to post this and watch this video, to proove whatever your point is, while in the same breathe you have refused to watch the video of Froto's that may support Faith and belief. We know what your agenda is!

The most important part you fail to see in this video Humphreys is that tommorrow the Pastor may find his Faith again. That only doubt, his own words led to this, and not proof of any sort, God doesn't exist. The Pastor never once badmouthed anyone in his congregation for belief nor did he advocate because he lost his Faith, they should too. He is a good person and as a minister has the best interrests of people in his heart. He may have lost his Faith, but even he struggled to be diplomatic when asked about Dawkins demeanor twards how he speaks of believers, distancing himself from being part of hostility.
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Postby event_horizon » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:13 pm

I liked the part where he said, "one of the dirty little secrets of Christianity is that hardly anyone ever reads the Bible, and I think if they did, the whole thing would be in big trouble."

The problem is most of them just go to church and listen to what their preacher says (like sheep), while the preacher leaves out all the horrid stuff that "God" does and says in the Bible.
I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what logic and reason cause me to believe. All I want is to live with the truth -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Postby greeney2 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:26 pm

Dirty little secret works 2 ways EH. When you quote and distort things out of context, like your proofs, and it doesn't represent the entire book and story from which it came from, that is not honestly reading it either. The Pastor should have asked just how much has Dawkins actually studied about the bible honestly, and how much is just picking and choosing from to distort?
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Postby event_horizon » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:47 pm

Don't come in here blabbering about the proofs again. You can't even defend yourself from the proofs, because you don't even know what your "entire" Bible entails.

Why is it that anytime someone points out the negative stuff that obviously exists in the Bible, your pitiful response is that somebody is distorting something...while at the same time YOU don't even know what's in your Bible. I find that to be utterly hilarious. :lol:
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:46 am

I didn't know believers were required to know the Bible from cover to cover, and defend every corner of it to you, for your approval!
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Postby humphreys » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:01 am

greeney2 wrote:Most interresting Humphreys is your willingness to post this and watch this video, to proove whatever your point is, while in the same breathe you have refused to watch the video of Froto's that may support Faith and belief. We know what your agenda is!


Why is it always about bickering with you?

Your post was fine until then, I was reading everything you said, agreed with some of it, disagreed with other parts, then BAM...you lost me.

I'm making it my new policy to just ignore your BS, so :wave:

Any more attempts to start a flame war with me and I'll bring out the :hand:
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby greeney2 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:32 am

Bickering or seeing right through your motives of posting this? What is your point, and what was the purpose of trolling Froto with providing something to further "Discuss", than play games refusing to watch his video?
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