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Christians - why the disagreement?

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Postby humphreys » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:32 am

In debate, "believers" and "non-believers" is never going to be a sufficient couple of definitions to describe everyone, because it says nothing of the nature on the non-belief.

Does the non-believer claim knowledge, or not? Is he making a direct claim about the proven falseness of all religions, and of the impossibility of a supreme being existing?

Or, does he just lack belief because the evidence is not convincing to him?

Does he, like the agnostic, claim that knowledge in of itself is fundamentally impossible?

Perhaps none of these things matter diddly squat to you greeney, but to others who care what the other person's position actually is, they are important, and will certainly guide the direction the discussion takes.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:33 am

Humphreys, the title "Christians=why they disagree" is not a question that can be answered simply in a message board thread. Certainly not an any level of expertise by either of us, or the 6 others who post here. You may totally disagree with me, but people study the theology of Christian religions for a lifetime, probably no single greater example, may be the combined knowledge of all the Roman Catholic Caridinals of the world, and the reseach that has been the work of the Vatican for centuries. Not trying to single out Catholics by any means, just an example of the magnitude of this question alone. The Bible is the most studied book, at all levels by highly educated theology scolors, to Bible studies in thousands of churches every week. There are great differences between the theology of just Christian religions, however the foundation of Jesus being the Son of God, The Savior, who died on the cross for our sins, is not different. And there are even greater differences between all the religions of the world, that are also studied for a lifetime.

I'm just a simple man, who has led a simple life, who has a belief in God, and believes God has watched over me. I also believe I have had blessings beyond my explanation, and for some reason spared from fates, others I've known were not so forutnate. When you are 65, you get a little more awareness of that guardian angel, that has always been over you. People find there way in many differnt circumstances. Some are pretty routine lives, where others found the path by reaching rock bottom, a near death experience, or coming out of a fox hole everyone else died in. Some just lived a life of Faith uneventfully, while others have events that bring them to thier knees with no where else to turn. Countless things, that can not be explained or proven by some science test, or some logical conclusion, or summerized in 3 sentences that will convince the unconvincable person.
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Postby DIss0n80r » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:52 pm

There's no good reason to believe any of these religions are right. It's as simple as that.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
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Postby frrostedman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:32 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:There's no good reason to believe any of these religions are right. It's as simple as that.

You should rephrase--as would any intellectually honest person; "There's not yet any good reason to believe..."

Unless you fancy yourself a clairvoyant, you should admit that you just don't know what tomorrow will bring. I ask you to bear in mind that just instants before I became a believer, I was a dyed in the wool, aggressively opinionated, non-believer.

I hope you keep seeking the truth and I think it is clear that you do seek the truth, else you wouldn't be hanging your hat here. And in case it enters your mind let me say that I want you to continue hanging out. You are (obviously) smart and you have plenty to add, and you ask good questions.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby DIss0n80r » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:14 pm

There isn't good reason yet to believe any of these religions are right. There may never be. It's as simple as that.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
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Postby greeney2 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:08 am

It may be as simple as that to you!
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Postby humphreys » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:15 am

frrostedman wrote:Unless you fancy yourself a clairvoyant, you should admit that you just don't know what tomorrow will bring. I ask you to bear in mind that just instants before I became a believer, I was a dyed in the wool, aggressively opinionated, non-believer.


To be honest, I think Disson8or is still right.

You didn't believe, and then you believed fully, with all your heart, but this was obviously an emotional thing. There was no reason involved. It's not as if after your experience you have anything you could supply as evidence, really.

You started to believe instantly, but this was not a logical process of events. There was no reason to believe before, and there was no reason to believe afterwards, because reason is a rational thing, and what happened to you was an emotional thing based on feeling rather than any kind of logical reasoning process.

Do you agree with this?

I am not trying to lessen your experience, but I don't think it was a process of reasoning which caused you to believe, and I suspect you'll agree with me there based on your Calvinistic views. You believed not because of reason, but because you had little choice but to because something changed emotionally, or chemically, or whatever the cause of it, at least that's what you imply based on what you have told us of your conversion.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."

- Sam Harris
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Postby DIss0n80r » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:56 am

I thought I was being more than fair about it to include "yet" at request, but some people are never satisfied. They don't respect other people who simply have no good reason to believe in the many, many different claims out there, whether it be alien-human hybrids from Atlantis, or mysterious monsters roaming the deep wilds and waters, or all-powerful invisible beings who want you to do XYZ or else. These are all questionable claims and it should never be acceptable to push those claims ad nauseam as if they were incontrovertible, nor should it be an admired trait to accept such claims as if they were incontrovertible.

If the truth of those claims were obvious, there would be no dispute, so if you continually push your belief in that manner, you'll always come across as an arrogant fool to critically-thinking people who rely on sound evidence and proper reasoning, regardless of how much faith in that belief you have.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
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Postby greeney2 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:26 am

What do you consider a good reason to believe in God?
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Postby DIss0n80r » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:32 am

What would you consider a good reason to believe in Allah?
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