Let's both have a go at a civil continuation of this without the implication that the other side's stance is stupid, okay greeney?
greeney2 wrote:What you are saying is agnostics, and weak atheists are lesser none believers and the same, somewhere in the middle of being a Strong atheist, and someone who believes in God
I can't make sense of your sentence. I don't get what you mean by "lesser none believers".
Weak atheists and agnostics are in some sense in the middle ground between believers and Strong atheists, because they do not claim absolute knowledge either way, but it is generally the case that if you ask the individual where they truly stand they will lean significantly towards one side or another.
I, as you know, am not truly in the middle ground with regard to Christianity because I think the existence of God is far less likely than the non-existence of God. I do not claim proof that any God is not real, or knowledge that any particular religion is definitely false, but I strongly lean towards that position. I find it highly unlikely that the major religions are in any sense true, but I'm a lot more sympathetic towards things like pantheism and even some types of deism.
So where I stand in relation to God also depends on what God you're talking about.
You can apply the labels to specific religions, also. You are "without Allah belief", so are an atheist towards Allah, for instance.
You want to make what I see as a very complex thing, and make it overly simplistic, "believer", or "unbeliever", and for some reason think oversimplified definitions are better than more descriptive ones. I strongly disagree with that, more descriptive definitions can only be better.
greeney2 wrote:, however you are adament the believer is wrong, yet still claim a middle position?
See above. Even when we break down atheism into "weak" and "strong" we're human beings with beliefs and opinions far more complex that a basic definition. I don't claim proof of "no God" so I cannot claim to be a strong atheist, so I am a "weak atheist", but that does not mean I am squarely on the fence, or in the middle. Some weak atheists will be right in the middle, some may be significantly to the side of no God, but all weak atheists reject the claim of Strong atheists that there is proof of no God.
greeney2 wrote:You clearly favor the strong atheism side, and clearly reject all of the believer side.
No, I reject Strong atheism just as I reject theism.
I have debated strong atheists elsewhere arguing how and why their position is unsound. I am more sympathetic to the strong atheist, but I think both strong atheists and believers are misguided in their beliefs.
greeney2 wrote:Either you are a believer or not a believer, that is the middle ground, not strong/weak atheism. That is why to any believer, the strong/weak terminology is relevant only to you.
Fine. I am "not a believer" to you.
But qmark said atheists claim direct proof of God's non-existence, and that's why I corrected him, because his claim is not true of most atheists. The terms "weak" and "strong" came along so believers understand what our position is and don't make faulty assumptions in debate. If you simply want to treat atheists as "unbelievers" you'll have no argument with me, but when you tack on additional claims like qmark did where he suggests atheists claim proof, then it becomes an issue and clarification and correction is needed.
I hope that clears that up.
greeney2 wrote:Page 1 my first comments were stating all Christians agree on the fact Jesus is the Son of God, and Died on the cross for us. Do you have any answer to that, becasue you skipped right past it.
Well we're into another discussion right now, we can move on if you like.
My basic response to that was that my thread was about the differences in the beliefs of Christians, not in the similarities. I never claimed there were not things you did not agree on.
"All of our behavior can be traced to biological events about which we have no conscious knowledge: this has always suggested that free will is an illusion."
- Sam Harris