The Black Vault

humphreys wrote:Given a computer, and a random key pressing machine, frrosted's simple program could come into existence purely by random chance, even if the odds are astronomical. Given enough chance and opportunity, it will happen.

Given evough chance and opportunity, with the right materials and conditions being present, the computer itself could even assemble by pure luck! It may seem absurd, but it's true.

Of course, it's not anything we're going to witness, but somewhere in the vast multiverse, it seems likely.

Evolution is a process that occurs incrementally, so it's not as unlikely as a computer assembling itself, but the initial replicators that predated life may have been created by a similar freak event, and that's perhaps why life seems so rare in the Universe.

Ok now I'm at work which further limits my ability to really sink into the thread properly. Anyway. So if I'm right, what you are saying is, the ability for species to accept survival and reject extinction is really just random chance? If so, why do all species on the planet share the same, random quality? Are there other parallel worlds in your hypothesis where 99.9% of species have a need to survive, and another world where 38.6% of the species strive to survive, and so on?

You do realize that if this is your hypothesis it is infinitely less likely than the possibility of an intelligent creator.

greeney2 wrote:I realize gravity is a major force of nature, but also is the strong and weak forces of the Nucleus of atoms. Without that what happens to elements that are in zero gravity, what holds them togather? There is not doubt that the study of Gravity is in itself a huge contributor to the Universe, but so are the forces of Atoms. I sure we would not be doing too well with Electromagnetc forces either.

I am no expert but I believe the force that holds atoms together--or perhaps better said, what keeps electrons in "orbit" around the nucleus--is the attraction of positive and negative charges. Absolute zero gravity would not--I don't think--have any effect on an atom's ability to stay intact.

at1with0 wrote:I believe all statements already exist. They are merely cited and referenced. Selected. I do not think they are invented by humans or computers.

Cited and referenced by... Whom?

frrostedman wrote:

humphreys wrote:Given a computer, and a random key pressing machine, frrosted's simple program could come into existence purely by random chance, even if the odds are astronomical. Given enough chance and opportunity, it will happen.

Given evough chance and opportunity, with the right materials and conditions being present, the computer itself could even assemble by pure luck! It may seem absurd, but it's true.

Of course, it's not anything we're going to witness, but somewhere in the vast multiverse, it seems likely.

Evolution is a process that occurs incrementally, so it's not as unlikely as a computer assembling itself, but the initial replicators that predated life may have been created by a similar freak event, and that's perhaps why life seems so rare in the Universe.

Ok now I'm at work which further limits my ability to really sink into the thread properly. Anyway. So if I'm right, what you are saying is, the ability for species to accept survival and reject extinction is really just random chance?

The laws of physics dictate the way the Universe works, as well as the organisms within it that have come to exist, so it is the laws of physics that are the result of random chance, and therefore, by extension, the way all things within that Universe behave, so I would say yes.

frrostedman wrote:If so, why do all species on the planet share the same, random quality? Are there other parallel worlds in your hypothesis where 99.9% of species have a need to survive, and another world where 38.6% of the species strive to survive, and so on?

All species are made up from the same building blocks, so it stands to reason they would share the same key characteristics in that regard. In Dawkin's book "The Selfish Gene", genes themselves play a key role in the organisms battle for propagation and survival. It's a bit misleading to treat all species as completely separate things. If a species did not have this drive to survive, they would be dead and/or extinct and we would not be discussing them.

To answer your second question, I am sure there are parallel Universes out there where life is different and the vast majority of living organisms simply die because they have no will to live. In fact, that particular trait is indeed inherent in certain living beings in our Universe - suicide for instance is not unheard of. In these Universes, evolution would struggle to take hold and life would be rare and short-lived.

frrostedman wrote:You do realize that if this is your hypothesis it is infinitely less likely than the possibility of an intelligent creator.

I don't think so. If parallel Universes exist, and it appears quite likely they do as far as modern science is concerned, then this theory is a natural result of that, so there is nothing unlikely about it at all as far as I can tell.

I am the light and the way..


no really..ME..Bionic..I AM THE LIGHT AND THE WAY!!

(or...NOT)

event_horizon wrote:Technically, since gravity created Earth, it is our creator.

So if I buy ingredients for a cake, mix them together and throw it in the oven, I should credit the oven as being the creator? Absolutely not, I was the creator since I thought up the idea of a cake and I was the one who decided what ingredients to put in it. The oven simply just cooked it according to my will.
In Much the same way; gravity performs according to the ingredients in the universe and the laws that make these ingredients interact according to their atomic structure.
The question here is who/what is the underlying ultimate creator.

frrostedman wrote:

at1with0 wrote:I believe all statements already exist. They are merely cited and referenced. Selected. I do not think they are invented by humans or computers.

Cited and referenced by... Whom?

The programmer.

Of course, once we figure out the ultimate creator of absolutely everything, the next job is to figure out who created Him

Seriously though, if there really is a very first link in the chain of absolutely everything there is no possible way that being could KNOW he was the first link, and the ultimate creator of everything. It's impossible.

If there really is a creator, I am sure he is wondering where he came from, and why, and trying to make sense of everything just as we are.

How could it be any other way?

I bet any true creator would stay up at night wondering whether he was a brain in a vat, or in the matrix, under the control and observations of aliens, or an even greater power. This is the reason why "God did it" can never truly be an explanation for reality itself, or indeed of our Universe, it simply moves the questions back a step and solves nothing.

Maybe the random chance multiverse created God, and He created us, and the atheists and the theists are both right in a certain sense. There is a saying "Only God knows", but I suspect he is pretty clueless too! Maybe He created us to figure it all out for him? Is that the purpose of our existence, to help God work out where he came from, and why?

Probably not, but to me it makes as much sense as anything else theism has to offer us...

The difficulty with a creator can be resolved if reality is its own creator and if it existed indefinitely into the past.

at1with0 wrote:The difficulty with a creator can be resolved if reality is its own creator and if it existed indefinitely into the past.

I agree, any all-encompassing explanation of absolutely everything just has to be atheistic at its core. Any notion of an intelligent being existing indefinitely runs into real infinite regress issues, so, while there may be a creator of us, to explain the existence of reality itself which encompasses any and all Gods, we have to think atheistically - of a purely natural lawless realm of pure nothingness from which existence (whether the existence of a God, or of Universes), somehow emerges, uncaused, and without good reason.