The Black Vault Message Forums

Discover the Truth!        

Religion & Spirituality

A Case for Intelligent Design

Whether you believe in a higher power or not, this forum is dedicated to the topic of religion and spirituality. We live in a diverse world with different morals and ideas when it comes to our beliefs, so come in and share your thoughts.

Postby bionic » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:04 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:
DIss0n80r wrote:


:thumbup:
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
User avatar
bionic
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby bionic » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:04 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:Some of you out there may find this stupid video informative:



:thumbup:
Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams
User avatar
bionic
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:16 pm

Hi Bi :wave:
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

Postby orangetom1999 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:42 am

at1with0 wrote:Are you gonna make me quote Leviticus?

I found this quote online... it's a good start.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)


Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."



Ahhhh..ok...thank you ...finally at1with0,

Now you do understand that we are not under the Law..or what is sometimes referred to as the Law of Moses given on Mt Sinai.

You do understand this .... correct???

Do you know anyone today who keeps this law??? I believe the Arabs might keep their version of this law..in killing their offspring for certain offenses against the family.


Also ..curious...at1with0...in keeping this Law of Moses.....do you know anyone today who sacrafices animals as required under this same law?? This could get extremely expensive having to sacrafice a lamb ..a pure lamb at 9 am in the morning and again at 3pm that same afternoon....continually.

Do you know anyone who does this today. I'm not saying it is not done somewhere in the world...but do you personally know anyone around where you live who does this.

Can you imagine the Israelis rebuilding the temple and then going on to continue or go back to this practice today?? I dont think so. They will wind up looting their country and the neighboring countries for sacrafices.

Or as it says in the New Testament...if you keep the Law..keep all of it. Which is one reason we are under Grace.

For it clearly states in Galatians that the Olde Testament is in bondage ...with her son..Ishmael...the son of the bondwoman.

Are you trying to hold us to the Olde Testament..to put us in bondage??

Lots of people go down this path and dont think it through...even many of them Christians.

There are Christians out here who dont have a clue. Sad but true.

By the way..all this science stuff..physics...et al. Is it going to make us better people..or just better consumers??

Ever think it through?? I have.


Thanks,
Orangetom
orangetom1999
 
Posts: 1199
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:25 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:59 pm

It doesn't matter if those are "outdated" by your rationale. The fact that they were written at all exposes who their author was: ignorant, primitive man.

You talk on about "grace" but there is no grace in believing in a God that would murder for petty reasons.

You broadly dismiss science, implying it must make us cold and cruel, and implying that religion is the warm and fuzzy opposite that will save us. But will this religion stuff make us better thinkers, or merely better believers? Will we necessarily act more morally because we adhere to unexamined and unfalsifiable religious dogma or will that ultimately make us better conformers to the words of other men, words we dare not oppose because they are backed by religious institutions and their gods?

No, the hope for man is in his willingness to understand and solve his own problems. No gods will do it for us. No words of men should be above scrutiny. We'll either help ourselves to survive and thrive or not be helped at all.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:08 pm

And I still haven't seen any posts disputing the facts and evidence in the video.

Guess we should just throw reason out the window when it leads us to anything that contradicts belief, though, right?

After all, what good is reality?? Will genuinely understanding what actually is, instead of blindly following religious dogma, make us better sheep?
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:39 am

Also, let's make it clear that advocating abandoning reason in favor of beliefs whenever it suits us is not an inconsequential position. Science, not faith, has produced the medical knowledge that has increased the longevity and quality of human life. The gods, in all their wisdom and glory, didn't see fit to arm our species with sufficient useful knowledge of diseases and how to prevent and cure them, for example. We've had to figure out as much as we have on our own, at the cost of horrendous unnecessary suffering for so very long...



So keep in mind that attempting to understand how things actually work - not how we wish they were or hope they are, not how we believe or want to, and not ignoring whatever facts we don't like - very much matters, and the consequences of undermining reason and science aren't just trivially foolish but potentially deadly.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:10 am

Oh, and Tom, about your Rummel quotes. I know it probably seems to you I've been ignoring them, and that's because I have. You know why? Leaving aside the controversy about Rummel inflating figures, let's just simply assume for the sake of argument those numbers are correct.

In fact, let's double them. Triple them, even. Heck, let's quadruple the number of deaths due to governments and their policies.

Now explain to me how one death or one trillion deaths due to governments has any bearing on Intelligent Design's validity and please teach the rest of us the reasoning that led you from those figures to your beliefs. Ie. Please explain how any number of deaths caused by governments proves the existence of God and not just that but specifically your God and the claims of your religion.

Because it seems like a red herring and an example of falsely dichotomous thinking ie. Government = man = evil, Bible = God = good, and furthermore may be meant to imply theocracy is justified.
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

Postby greeney2 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:22 pm

DIss0n80r wrote:Also, let's make it clear that advocating abandoning reason in favor of beliefs whenever it suits us is not an inconsequential position. Science, not faith, has produced the medical knowledge that has increased the longevity and quality of human life. The gods, in all their wisdom and glory, didn't see fit to arm our species with sufficient useful knowledge of diseases and how to prevent and cure them, for example. We've had to figure out as much as we have on our own, at the cost of horrendous unnecessary suffering for so very long...


So keep in mind that attempting to understand how things actually work - not how we wish they were or hope they are, not how we believe or want to, and not ignoring whatever facts we don't like - very much matters, and the consequences of undermining reason and science aren't just trivially foolish but potentially deadly.


Science has done as many things to harm mankind, decrease longevity, and deminish the quality of life. Science along with "critical thinking", has brought us to the brink of world wide disease and possible famon. You may see the day when you hope and pray God can intervien. It was not very logical to proceed with many scientific "advances", ignoring the total results and impact. Man in all his wisdom and glory, using nothing but logic alone, has done a pretty good job of killing this planet. All without Gods help, as you so elequently state. Lets all hope there is a God becasue we are heading for a bad ending, when logical thinking is regarded as some superior kind of "Critical thinking" that is somehow better. If your logical scientic advances were so great, why is our planet ready to self disstruct? Global warming is a result of bad science, and how many species of life have gone extinct is just your lifetime due to more bad science?


Think again about science and logic, and how stupid relying completely on science alone may be. There are other ways of thinking, not just one way, as your cartoon video condesendlingly discribes. Scientific thinking is great in science class, but it doesn't help much in many other matters of life. You make a lot more decisions in life that are not based on hard logical or scientific logic whatsoever, the most important decisions in your life are probably of that nature.
greeney2
 
Posts: 9644
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:54 am

Postby DIss0n80r » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:03 pm

That's the best you got? Really?

Again, wishy-washy appeals to emotion are irrelevant here. Whether or not humans have caused harm to themselves and the planet is also irrelevant - they undoubtedly have. Your position scores zero sympathy points for "caring" so much about the fate of our species and world... an odd attitude for a Christian to have, considering.

I'm growing tired of waiting for debate. No one has legitimately responded to a single point made on ID, as far as I know. All I've read so far are useless overgeneralizations, vague conflations, muddled reasoning, and questionable references, all seemingly intended to polarize debate into simplistic extremes without actually being able to refute anything whatsoever put forward, unable even to sensibly elucidate anything of value. Not one solitary fact I've posted has been properly addressed. Not one religious claim has been substantiated.

Tell me why I should waste any more time here since you clearly cannot argue effectively?
"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort
User avatar
DIss0n80r
 
Posts: 4162
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:45 am

PreviousNext

Return to Religion & Spirituality

cron
  • View new posts
  • View unanswered posts
  • Who is online
  • In total there are 2 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 2 guests (based on users active over the past 10 minutes)
  • Most users ever online was 292 on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:19 pm
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests