The Black Vault

frrostedman wrote:Forget for a moment all of the debate and controversy surrounding all the different religions and whose God is the right God, if there even is a God. Instead, let’s focus on whether or not there is any Creator in the first place. Is this universe a product of intelligent design? If it is, that means there is a Creator. And if there is a Creator, the Creator would very likely have revealed itself to us, which would then mean at least one of the many religions is probably on the right track.

I don't believe reality is a creation.

humphreys wrote:I am not sure if this is real but it is amazing if it is:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/fe ... alcon.html

Only loosely related to the thread but it does show the wonder of nature, so I thought I'd share.

Nature has many things like this that seem unexplainable. What tells the ant colony how to work togather, or the bees who has what job, and how they work togather. Some baby fish when a preditor comes, all swim into the mothers mouth to protect them. Whydo birds fly in formations like the starlings, and all can turn in unison with each other. How does Momma Bird teach this? EH asks what the purpose of a vast universe and other stars and galaxies, what the purpose of such a wide difference in our animal kingdom? Why were so many creatures put here, and why are they all so complex and different? What makes the flock of birds unite into one formation, and not just all scatter in a million directions. Either way would be affective but one bird would probably be a victim if th3ey scattered, when in a united formation, they all survive. What tells them to instictively do this?

Not to mention the countless species who have came and gone extinct for seemingly no reason at all. Nature and the Universe is extremely wasteful, if there is a designer, he cares not about minimizing needless use of resources!

He would make a pretty poor programmer

Wow! so what you are saying is If there is a creator, but "HE" is a pretty poor programmer, you have deducted God would be a Man.

I think if you count the species that have gone extinct, the scoreboard would be that man has caused much more than Nature has. Especially in the last century.

greeney2 wrote:I think if you count the species that have gone extinct, the scoreboard would be that man has caused much more than Nature has. Especially in the last century.

Last century, perhaps, since the beginning not even close.

The universe is approximately 13.5 billion years old, and the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old...so the universe existed for 9 billion years before Earth existed.

Basically the universe existed for 2/3 of its life without Earth.

What's the point in the "all-powerful/all-knowing God" having the universe just sit around for so long before creating Earth?

Like I said earlier, there was a lack of heavier elements in the early universe...but if "God" is "all-powerful," then "God" should have been able to make the necessary elements from the get-go.

This certainly contradicts "God's" alleged omnipotence.

I think part of what frrosted man is saying is that; the universe in itself is intelligent.

In his example of the dandelion; its is obvious that the dandelion has no choice over it's offsprings design. However, the universe's inherent design (or state) has permitted the dandelion to thrive and indirectly order itself.

Mainstream Science states that the Big Bang was the start of the universe. Assuming this is true, this would mean that, the universe created itself; then proceeded to organize itself into units of galaxies, then within those galaxies organized further into units of solar systems; then within those solars systems organized into stars, planets and moons. Then, on plant earth, an extremely violent environment organized into a stable and consistent climate. Then the elements organized into single cell life forms. Then these single cell life forms organized into multicell life forms.

We all know where the rest of the story goes, but its seems that the point is that the universe inately strives to bring order out of chaos. The dandelion is caught in the cycle of order. The universe created itself and now its organizing itself. I would argue that there is a certain amount of intelligence associated with the feats already carried out by the universe.

Those that disagree may think that all these examples provided are simply outgrowths of chance; however humans are an outgrowth of the same process and our principle of science are based on the exact same concepts of trial and error that have been practiced by the universe for billions of years.

Capricorn, humans and other diverse life forms exist in this Universe, so it goes without saying that the Universe has laws of physics that are conducive to the evolution of life.

We don't need examples showing certain characteristics of flowers or seeds to show that, it's an indisputable fact.

The question is, why are those laws conducive to the evolution of life? You and frrosted are saying "a creator made them that way deliberately", which is fine, perhaps you are right, but we all know this approach often brings up as many questions as it answers, such as "where does God come from?", "who created him?", "why does he exist?", "why is God the way he is?".

By stating that God created the Universe, really you're just moving the question back a step from "Why are the laws of physics the way they are, why do they exist, and where do they come from?", to "Why is God the way he is, why does he exist, and where does he come from?", and those questions are no easier to answer. So let's not pretend that God is an "explanation", at best all that hypothesis does is move the questions back a step. It's a bit like a child answering the question "where does food come from?" with "mommy".

Somewhere along the line both the believer and the atheist have to draw the line and say "things are like this because they just are, they are the way of reality, and have no further explanation". For the believer, the buck stops at God, for the atheist, it usually stops at the Multiverse. The appearance of design and the diversity of life can be explained by the Multiverse and parallel Universes just as well as by a creator, therefore the appearance of design itself cannot be used as proof of God or a creator.

Those that disagree may think that all these examples provided are simply outgrowths of chance; however humans are an outgrowth of the same process and our principle of science are based on the exact same concepts of trial and error that have been practiced by the universe for billions of years.

Why would an all-knowing creator require trial and error? This statement of yours to me, implies either random chance at work, or a creator who is certainly not perfect, all-powerful, and all-knowing, but instead a flawed, uncertain, tinkerer.

All I'm saying is that the intelligence of humans and our ability to create and design has been done by the universe for billions of years.
The topic of this thread is intelligent design and my argument is "yes, intelligent design is real and it is all around us". I'll leave the discussion of how these laws came to be for the atheist and the spiritualists.

humphreys wrote:Why would an all-knowing creator require trial and error? This statement of yours to me, implies either random chance at work, or a creator who is certainly not perfect, all-powerful, and all-knowing, but instead a flawed, uncertain, tinkerer.

I'm not a proponent of any ideal (Atheist or Creator); I just simply propose the ideas and ask the questions.

But for the sake for discussion; How is a system that works, flawed? Is it because it takes billions of years to develop? In your mind, this is a flawed system, but for a supreme being ( not contained by the forces of space and time) it would be instantaneous.

If the whole purpose of the universe was to produce Chocolate Ice Cream then I would say that the laws that govern the Universe performed exceptionally well. In the view of your "atheist multiverse theory", the entity in question could have setup the laws in this universe, lit the big bang fuse, stepped into another universe, waited 5 seconds, then returned to our universe... Wah-Lah! Chocolate Ice Cream.

This universe is "programmed" for organization. Is that not an intelligent universe? A cosm that is extremely life friendly?

As we speak, our space missions have no doubt taken microscopic life forms to outer space. Some of our space garbage has most likely drifted out of solar orbit and is on it's way to some distant system. Our "sperm" will most likely impregnate another world in a similar fashion to the dandelion that unknowingly evolved to spread it's seed to the far reaches of the planet.

capricorn wrote:But for the sake for discussion; How is a system that works, flawed? Is it because it takes billions of years to develop? In your mind, this is a flawed system, but for a supreme being ( not contained by the forces of space and time) it would be instantaneous.

Usually good design, especially where programming is concerned, minimizes waste. The Universe is a mind-blowingly wasteful system, so yes, from a design perspective I would say it is flawed.

Take a look into space, there are trillions upon trillions of useless and unused planets. So many extinct species, so much death, the whole system is based on the survival of one over the death, destruction, and suffering of another.

If you look for them, the flaws are everywhere. Of course, these may not really be flaws I may just be not seeing the bigger picture, but by every definition and reasoning I can think of there are things that could be done better, and with less waste.

capricorn wrote:If the whole purpose of the universe was to produce Chocolate Ice Cream then I would say that the laws that govern the Universe performed exceptionally well.

That's a very simplistic way to look at it. If I created an ice-cream making machine that was the size of Texas, simply just to produce a single cup of chocolate, you'd call me an idiot, and a terrible designer.

If millions had to die to make that ice-cream, you would throw the word "evil" into the mix too.

capricorn wrote:In the view of your "atheist multiverse theory", the entity in question could have setup the laws in this universe, lit the big bang fuse, stepped into another universe, waited 5 seconds, then returned to our universe... Wah-Lah! Chocolate Ice Cream.

Of course this is possible, I just don't think it's likely or necessary to assume this.

capricorn wrote:This universe is "programmed" for organization. Is that not an intelligent universe? A cosm that is extremely life friendly?

If indeed it is "programmed", but I don't think it is...

If there are indeed trillions (perhaps an infinite number even?) of Universes each with different laws, and modern science suggests this is likely the case, what are the odds none of these would be able to support life?

Personally, I have no clue, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if in all that mess there was a place that was just okay enough for some form of intelligent life to survive and thrive.