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A Case for Intelligent Design: Part 2

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Postby at1with0 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:14 pm

Discuss.
"it is easy to grow crazy"
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Postby greeney2 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:01 pm

 ! greeney2 wrote:
Moved from battle forum, as a reopened topic in religion forum, so all posters can discuss respectfully. Thank You!
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Postby khanster » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:19 am

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Postby orangetom1999 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:11 am

I have great problems with these types of philosophical arguments or debate points.

My problem with the concept is the debate over God being good. I find this to be a flawed argument in lieu of the plethora of what men tend to think is good...or bad.

My understanding is that God is Sovereign ..not that God is good..but that God is Sovereign.


I make this point in the reflection that the Muslim position is that god is good... their view is that their god is good...while they plan to kill their neighbor or those their religion or fatwas say must be killed...by any means.

Also ..I know that in certain Occult writings they state that they believe in "the good god." When you read carefully...and distinctly ..based on Bible reason and logic..it is obvious that "the good god" is a code word for Lucifer. I have actually heard this pattern of the good god spoken of by someone who did not know I knew of this existence or dogma. I have actually asked some of these people ...to give me the name of their god....and they have told me that they cannot tell..they have taken an oath.

When someone cannot tell you the name of their god ...but must conceal it in code words like "the good god" it becomes a wake up call to those who can think further than a public education or a movie/television education.

That someone cannot tell you the name of their god..is a strange experience to behold. Very strange.



Hence I am very careful when trying to get involved in the concept or debate about God Being Good. God is Sovereign..that leaves all the arguments of good or bad out of the debate.

Now when you are debating the condition of men...now good or bad applies.

If you do not understand what I am saying...I will try to put it in another perspective.

The purpose of the Supreme Court of the United States...is to settle arguments about whether laws or cases at lower courts are in accordance with the freedoms established by the Constitution of the United States.

Many years back ..some of the Justices on the Supreme Court began to debate whether the Constitution itself was Constitutional.

This debate over God being good or not is in the same pattern or vein...in the same spirit.

When I run into people who must needs debate the point or issue about God being bad or good...they are telling me clearly that they do not know a Sovereign God...they know only a subject god. They know the god of this world..another god than that of the Word. And many of these people are those of intellect..or wisdom...sophists....gnostic wise men.
Be Warned.

The God I know..is Sovereign. This settles the point about God being good or bad.

Thanks,
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Postby khanster » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:30 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_Infinite

The Absolute Infinite is mathematician Georg Cantor's concept of an "infinity" that transcended the transfinite numbers. Cantor equated the Absolute Infinite with God. He held that the Absolute Infinite had various mathematical properties, including that every property of the Absolute Infinite is also held by some smaller object.



http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? ... l_argument

The classic ontological argument for the existence of God runs as follows:

1. God is the greatest imaginable being.

2. All else being equal, a being or entity that exists is greater than one that doesn't.

3. Therefore, God exists.




http://sas.uwaterloo.ca/~cgsmall/ontology.html




...
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Postby at1with0 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:59 pm

What are the attributes of the greatest thing? For example, did it talk to Moses through a burning bush?
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Postby frrostedman » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:27 pm

orangetom1999 wrote:I have great problems with these types of philosophical arguments or debate points.

My problem with the concept is the debate over God being good. I find this to be a flawed argument in lieu of the plethora of what men tend to think is good...or bad.

My understanding is that God is Sovereign ..not that God is good..but that God is Sovereign.

God is just. And justice is good.

A recent poster I won't even bother to name argued against the ridiculousness of saying "God=good, gov't=bad, therefore God exists" .. something like that.

Fine, that's an acceptable point but the converse must also be true. Likewise, it can't be argued that "God=bad, therefore God doesn't exist." And besides, like you alluded to Tom, we can't even agree as human beings on what is good or bad, so how do we then have the right to declare God as bad?

Arguments are always made that God ended lives, therefore God is bad. God and God alone, being SOVEREIGN, has the right to create life and destroy life. Every time God has ended a life or lives, He has done it for the betterment of the human race. Period. Is a surgeon evil because he ends the life of the cells in a tumor he removes? No.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby frrostedman » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:29 pm

at1with0 wrote:What are the attributes of the greatest thing? For example, did it talk to Moses through a burning bush?

We couldn't possible know all the attributes, but, doesn't it make sense that we would have a record created to account for the attributes we DO know about?

I don't understand the relevance of the 2nd question.
Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein
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Postby at1with0 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:02 pm

frrostedman wrote:
at1with0 wrote:What are the attributes of the greatest thing? For example, did it talk to Moses through a burning bush?

We couldn't possible know all the attributes, but, doesn't it make sense that we would have a record created to account for the attributes we DO know about?

I don't understand the relevance of the 2nd question.

Let me try to explain.
khanster wrote:The classic ontological argument for the existence of God runs as follows:

1. God is the greatest imaginable being.

2. All else being equal, a being or entity that exists is greater than one that doesn't.

3. Therefore, God exists.



The obvious question is is that God the Christian God.

Do we have a record of the known attributes of God. Perhaps.
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Postby khanster » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:07 am

at1with0 wrote:
The obvious question is is that God the Christian God.



The God of Christianity is also the God of the old testament writings. Such a God is defined as being a vengeful and jealous being, that dishes out punishment and reward. Jealousy and vengeance are not attributes of perfection but instead are attributes of inadequacy.

Those attributes are anthropomorphic in character and as such they cannot be the attributes of "that which nothing greater can be conceived".

The ultimate God of ALL possible gods is purely abstract and completely perfect.

All other gods are sub-gods. Those sub-gods created this imperfect reality and it is a true matrix of illusion and sensation.
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