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event_horizon
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 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Proof That There Is No "God" |
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horizon
The mixed breed three-eyed half grey alien half cyclops mutant from a galaxy so far away you can't even get there if you folded space.
Interdimensional Renegade |
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greeney2
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: |
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Glad this guy has it all figured out, that with his theory, between 4-5 billion humans are wrong in their beliefs, and this is right!  |
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event_horizon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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It doesn't matter how many there are, until we get some evidence for their beliefs, it'll remain a fairy tale.
When half of the believers in the world are either Muslim or Christian, and nearly all of them are force fed (brainwashed/programmed) since they were like 2 or 3 years old, of course most of the world will still believe. True science has only been around a few hundred years, vs. a few thousand years of theological programming. It would take a lot more time for humanity to finally get the picture, but sadly I don't think we'll have enough time.
I guess it doesn't matter to you how well this guy put together his essay. He literally shot the "God" fantasy down to shreds, using nothing but his intellect. And surprise, you don't like it.  |
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horizon
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greeney2
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of long winded self serving definitions, with opinionated deductions, assuming those definitions are correct. Other than that, he has not proven the non-existance of God whatsoever. He talks about science but gives no scientific tests or studies to support his opinions.
Like you say, given the numbers of Muslims, Christians, and Jews in the world, one word comes to mind. Concensous of numbrs alone, of 4-5 billion believers, outweighs one atheists opinion. Almost as accurate as a DNA test. |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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 ..that was nice G...and cute too. |
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smokin_joe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I think it is a good post that brings up valid questions. I do agree that if evil exists, God had to create it as well. Otherwise, the devil does hold equal abilities of creation and therefore we would logically have to wonder "who created us"..
I say that because all one has to do is look at all the bad things that happen here. If God is not the creator of all things, then we must conclude the devil created this (if one maintains that God didn't create the evil that the devil represents).
I believe God is the only Creator, and therefore, for whatever purpose, evil exists because it is the Creator's will.
The counter argument is that God is all good and chooses not to create evil things. My reply is if that is the case, who created evil and how were they able to get around God to do so?
As for the article, I laughed at his use of Ockham's Razor to aid in proving his point. William of Ockham was a Christian (friar) and logician/philosopher. In explaining God's existence, his explanation became well known as "Ockham's Razor"..
This goes to show that anyone can take something and make it say anything. We have the creation of Ockham's Razor defending the existence of God and now we have Ockham's Razor alledgedly showing God doesn't exist. It always goes back to what I have said, it simply comes down to one's own perspective and choice on the issue.
Finally, to prove my point, here is the author of that articles very own comment on this:
| Quote: |
| One can argue with this and say that not enough is known about the dual nature of matter to say this disproves god, but until we have that knowledge I contend that the default position would be not to believe in god. |
And, like I always say..it's his choice to arbitrarily choose that position. There is nothing science can do to weigh in on this as there currently exists no technology/method to prove/fasify the existence of God. That article, in the end, comes down to one's choice in what position they default to take on the subject. |
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"Science & religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside. They look out at the same universe. Neither is complete. And both are worthy of RESPECT!" -Physicist Freeman Dyson |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Smokin'!  
That question of good vs. evil has always been a hard one for religions to tackle. Zoroastrianism had the good god Ahura Mazda and the bad god Angra Mainyu. Mazda created everything good and Mainyu sabotaged it.
It seems that for a lot of Christians it's hard to come to the conclusion that a loving God would create evil. Just look at the story of Job.
Personally, I see much of the good/evil debate as subjective perspective. Is death evil? Is starvation evil? I don't know.
My current working definition of evil is trying to control another being. We only have control over ourselves.
Pop back in here more often, I'll buy you a cup of coffee with egg nog. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Funny how some call a fantasy what they cannot see. |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| smokin_joe wrote: |
I say that because all one has to do is look at all the bad things that happen here. If God is not the creator of all things, then we must conclude the devil created this (if one maintains that God didn't create the evil that the devil represents). |
I would say that there is a small flaw with that argument...after all, we fly around in airplanes...did God create those airplanes? Clearly not, but God did allow for the materials to be manipulated in such a way by man to COME UP with the working concept of the airplane...so one might argue God "allowed" the airplane to be built....as if there were some reason there should be things "allowed" to exist or be created and things "not allowed"....when in my mind the truth is a bit more mundane, God simply ALLOWS humanity to be co-creators in a sense....to create evil if they wish, not that God endorses that creation, just that this is what happens.
| smokin_joe wrote: |
I believe God is the only Creator, and therefore, for whatever purpose, evil exists because it is the Creator's will.
The counter argument is that God is all good and chooses not to create evil things. My reply is if that is the case, who created evil and how were they able to get around God to do so? |
I agree that "evil" existing is part of what can be generically called "gods will" but only so much as anything else that exists is....Personally "evil" (whatever that is), to me, seems like a thing that is there as almost a natural outcome of free will.
have a room full of people and a room full of materials....some will make pottery, some will make bombs....in other words. |
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there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
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smokin_joe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Personally, I see much of the good/evil debate as subjective perspective. Is death evil? Is starvation evil? I don't know. |
Hey ya Nes..I'm gonna hold ya to that egg nog coffee..heheh
I personally look at evil exactly as you have just demonstrated. From our perspective (going thru it) obviously evil is horrendous, painful and overall bad. An experience many would prefer NOT to have. But, in my opinion it exists because without it, we cannot possibly understand "good."
| Quote: |
| I would say that there is a small flaw with that argument...after all, we fly around in airplanes...did God create those airplanes? Clearly not, but God did allow for the materials to be manipulated in such a way by man to COME UP with the working concept of the airplane...so one might argue God "allowed" the airplane to be built....as if there were some reason there should be things "allowed" to exist or be created and things "not allowed"....when in my mind the truth is a bit more mundane, God simply ALLOWS humanity to be co-creators in a sense....to create evil if they wish, not that God endorses that creation, just that this is what happens. |
Valid point. Though, I am talking about the materials itself, not the end product. We cannot create evil. God allows it to exist, and "allows" us to "choose" whether to build that evil into a final product. We never created it. It has existed since God created it.
I certainly don't agree that we create evil. We simply take something that already exists, because our Creator allows it to be, and we use it to gain power, money, commit some form of pain against our fellow man, etc...
And that comes down to subjective perspective, ie. one's own moral code. Talk to a mormon and caffeine is evil (perish the thought). Talk to one christian and alcohol is evil. Talk to another christian and alcohol, in moderation, is quite alright.
One might say multiple wives is adultery. Another believer might say, "many wives is biblically sound."
When you look at the entire planet of thought on God, it almost logically comes down to the idea that, if there is a Creator, then it must be that Creator's will for all the varied beliefs to exist.
Thus, I conclude, the belief in God was not meant to be of one thought, but much more personal. Heaven to me might be a log cabin on a lake w/ a soulmate at my side. Heaven to another might be to simply travel the universe and visit all the places of creation. Whose to say both aren't right? |
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"Science & religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside. They look out at the same universe. Neither is complete. And both are worthy of RESPECT!" -Physicist Freeman Dyson |
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Nesaie
B.V. Info-a-holic
Joined: Aug 04, 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| smokin_joe wrote: |
v
| Quote: |
| Personally, I see much of the good/evil debate as subjective perspective. Is death evil? Is starvation evil? I don't know. |
Hey ya Nes..I'm gonna hold ya to that egg nog coffee..heheh |
Actually...have you ever had egg nog and chai tea??? OOOOOOHHH! That is sooooo good. Throwing in a bit-o-brandy never hurt either. 
| smokin_joe wrote: |
I personally look at evil exactly as you have just demonstrated. From our perspective (going thru it) obviously evil is horrendous, painful and overall bad. An experience many would prefer NOT to have. But, in my opinion it exists because without it, we cannot possibly understand "good."
|
This is where I really like the Taoist/Zen/Buddhist stories. There are many who cover this very subject.
There is a discussion in the WoT forum currently that has morphed into talking about vaccines. I know, I know, off topic.  However, between the two discussions, what is good/evil and to vaccinate or not, it has brought up some interesting questions in my mind.
For example, one disease mentioned in the other forum was Polio. Apparently, Polio killed about 30% of those infected. Now, Polio is a virus. I am also not convinced that vaccines do all they claim. However, let's pretend that they do prevent disease. Maybe the human species has become weaker and more susceptible to diseases like this since we no longer rely on our own immune defenses? Maybe, in the long run, it is a "necessary evil" to allow that 30% dying, in order for the future of the species to be stronger.
I always have to wonder, are we doing more harm than good? I understand it’s hard to watch a loved one die. I understand the pain of being in this human experience. But, are these experiences "evil". Should we try to prevent these experiences?
We live, we die. There is pain experienced in between those two events. It’s natural. Why do we fear any of it? Even pain is a mere illusion. We choose to experience it or not.
So many questions...  |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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fortwynt
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Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 1572
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| smokin_joe wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Personally, I see much of the good/evil debate as subjective perspective. Is death evil? Is starvation evil? I don't know. |
Hey ya Nes..I'm gonna hold ya to that egg nog coffee..heheh
I personally look at evil exactly as you have just demonstrated. From our perspective (going thru it) obviously evil is horrendous, painful and overall bad. An experience many would prefer NOT to have. But, in my opinion it exists because without it, we cannot possibly understand "good."
| Quote: |
| I would say that there is a small flaw with that argument...after all, we fly around in airplanes...did God create those airplanes? Clearly not, but God did allow for the materials to be manipulated in such a way by man to COME UP with the working concept of the airplane...so one might argue God "allowed" the airplane to be built....as if there were some reason there should be things "allowed" to exist or be created and things "not allowed"....when in my mind the truth is a bit more mundane, God simply ALLOWS humanity to be co-creators in a sense....to create evil if they wish, not that God endorses that creation, just that this is what happens. |
Valid point. Though, I am talking about the materials itself, not the end product. We cannot create evil. God allows it to exist, and "allows" us to "choose" whether to build that evil into a final product. We never created it. It has existed since God created it.
I certainly don't agree that we create evil. We simply take something that already exists, because our Creator allows it to be, and we use it to gain power, money, commit some form of pain against our fellow man, etc...
And that comes down to subjective perspective, ie. one's own moral code. Talk to a mormon and caffeine is evil (perish the thought). Talk to one christian and alcohol is evil. Talk to another christian and alcohol, in moderation, is quite alright.
One might say multiple wives is adultery. Another believer might say, "many wives is biblically sound."
When you look at the entire planet of thought on God, it almost logically comes down to the idea that, if there is a Creator, then it must be that Creator's will for all the varied beliefs to exist.
Thus, I conclude, the belief in God was not meant to be of one thought, but much more personal. Heaven to me might be a log cabin on a lake w/ a soulmate at my side. Heaven to another might be to simply travel the universe and visit all the places of creation. Whose to say both aren't right? |
A very concise point, my friend.
I would say though, that God provides material "neutrality" and humans add the slant on those materials which makes them either "bad" or "good", or rather "conducive to helping others" or "destructive". |
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there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
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slakey
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Joined: Nov 04, 2008
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| greeney2 wrote: |
| Glad this guy has it all figured out, that with his theory, between 4-5 billion humans are wrong in their beliefs, and this is right! |
Just because as you say 4 to 5 billion people believe in god !!!
THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT SO !!
PEOPLE THAT BELIEVE IN GOD, JUST GO THROUGH LIFE WITH WHAT
THEY FEEL IS A VALID EXCUSE FOR ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS ........ GOOD OR BAD !!
ITS ALWAYS NOTED AS GODS WILL.....
ITS A SICK REASON FOR SOME PEOPLE TO KILL AND MAIM OTHERS....
IN THE NAME OF GOD ????
ITS HAPPENED FOR CENTURY`S....
AND STILL DOES....
IN MY OPINION, GOOD AND EVIL IS THE HUMAN CONDITION....
ITS IN EVERY PERSON THAT WALKS THIS EARTH...
YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS SET BY YOUR PARENTS, THE PEOPLE YOU SURROUND YOURSELF WITH, AND ULTIMATELY BY YOURSELF BASED ON YOUR EDUCATION, IF ITS RELIGION BASED , ANY FAITH !!!!!!
AND WHAT YOUR TAUGHT TO BELIEVE FROM A YOUNG CHILD IS THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR BELIEF
HENCE PEOPLE BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE TOLD WHEN YOUNG !!
IF RELIGION BASED THEY ARE TOLD NOT TO QUESTION.... BUT TO ACCEPT GODS WILL !!
THIS BREEDS AN OVERWHELMING POPULATION THAT JUST ACCEPTS GOD TO EXIST .............
IF YOUR TAUGHT NOT TO QUESTION RELIGION IN THIS WORLD... HOW CAN ANYBODY EVER KNOW??????????????
ITS THE SHEEP MENTALITY IF YOU BELIEVE, JUST BECAUSE EVERYBODY ELSE DOES..........................
TO QUESTION... IS ONE STEP CLOSER TO SOME TYPE OF GENERAL
CONSENSUS IN THE FUTURE
ITS GOOD TO HAVE HEALTHY DEBATE ON THE ISSUE !!!! |
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im just a learner here!! very curious about u.f.o phenoma !! |
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fortwynt
B.V. Info Seeker
Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 1572
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Nesaie wrote: |
| smokin_joe wrote: |
v
| Quote: |
| Personally, I see much of the good/evil debate as subjective perspective. Is death evil? Is starvation evil? I don't know. |
Hey ya Nes..I'm gonna hold ya to that egg nog coffee..heheh |
Actually...have you ever had egg nog and chai tea??? OOOOOOHHH! That is sooooo good. Throwing in a bit-o-brandy never hurt either.
| smokin_joe wrote: |
I personally look at evil exactly as you have just demonstrated. From our perspective (going thru it) obviously evil is horrendous, painful and overall bad. An experience many would prefer NOT to have. But, in my opinion it exists because without it, we cannot possibly understand "good."
|
This is where I really like the Taoist/Zen/Buddhist stories. There are many who cover this very subject.
There is a discussion in the WoT forum currently that has morphed into talking about vaccines. I know, I know, off topic. However, between the two discussions, what is good/evil and to vaccinate or not, it has brought up some interesting questions in my mind.
For example, one disease mentioned in the other forum was Polio. Apparently, Polio killed about 30% of those infected. Now, Polio is a virus. I am also not convinced that vaccines do all they claim. However, let's pretend that they do prevent disease. Maybe the human species has become weaker and more susceptible to diseases like this since we no longer rely on our own immune defenses? Maybe, in the long run, it is a "necessary evil" to allow that 30% dying, in order for the future of the species to be stronger.
I always have to wonder, are we doing more harm than good? I understand it’s hard to watch a loved one die. I understand the pain of being in this human experience. But, are these experiences "evil". Should we try to prevent these experiences?
We live, we die. There is pain experienced in between those two events. It’s natural. Why do we fear any of it? Even pain is a mere illusion. We choose to experience it or not.
So many questions... |
Some believe God "macromanages" the weather....when a tornado hits a trailer park (or otherwise), it is considered a "bad" event (obviously), almost ascribe a "personality" to the storm....is the tornado bad?....is it evil that God "allows" the storm to kill people? Are storms not necessary? Does God choose where a person decides to live that incidentally might be in the path of the storm? |
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_________________
there would be no flowers at all, without a compost pile
--fk |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think God is in control of anything. I think that's sort of the whole point of life. |
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"**ck it, we'll do it live." -- Bill O'Reilly.
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