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tarsustom
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 Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: Humanism aka Atheism aka Nihilism |
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I heard an interesting (but quick and general) study last night on humanism and human rights.
Humanism as a belief system, is based on (a) Atheism, and (b) Human Rights.
So far so good, right? No arguments.
Ok well the speakers postulated this. According to Atheism (nutshelled but in a kinder way than the 'Christianity in a nutshell' thread) we came from nothingness, and in the end, we go right back to where we came from... to nothingness. No God created the universe, and nothing is going to happen when we die.
Ok fine.
Then what is all the hubub about human rights? In the end, you will die and return to dust, and never be seen or heard from ever again. Why then should a humanist feel morally obligated to follow anyone's rules but their own? Why? "Another group of people said it's not right to do that," doesn't cut it. The human is afterall, their own god... their own boss... their own rulemakers. Something being against the "law" shouldn't dictate morality and besides gay marriage is still mostly illegal... does that mean the humanist stands against gay marriage? No, the humanist is entitled to decide for themselves what rules are right or wrong.
How is that in any way acceptable?
And to be clear, the 'came from nothing, going back to nothing' philosophy of existence is so morbid and full of so much despair I don't know how one could really believe it and live very long.
The poem "The Raven" addresses Poe's obsession with, and ensuing, maddening struggle with, his realization that when it's all said and done, all of us and all of our loved ones are but a fleeting blip across the radar of life, destined to go straight back to the dumpster we all crawled out of... with nothing to show for it and no other power to sustain us. Just... *poof* ... so as the author questions the raven asking if he'll ever see his dead lover again, is she going to a better place, yada yada.. the Raven... the Atheist Raven says but one word to every question. "Nevermore."
Yuck. I'm depressed.
*edited twice to fix the title*
Last edited by tarsustom on Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: |
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If you're depressed, why isn't your bible covering your despair?
Didn't the ancient ones have an answer for current day problems? |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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As Nietzsche fully understood, once God is seen to be dead, natural rights, morality, and the idea of progress become total shams. Facing this prospect of pure nihilism, Nietzsche called for a "new morality," a morality carved out by a "Superman" who would rise above the morality of the herd. This Superman would have the courage to create his own morality. Yet all the time he exercised his courage he would know that, in the end, even this courage was doomed to meaninglessness.
The greatest contribution of the nihilists is their pointing out the clear-cut consequences of what life would be without the existence of God. They reject half-hearted, compromise positions [a la Nietzschke's] that hesitate to embrace either full-orbed theism or total nihilism.
-RC Sproul
Q101, I'm not actually depressed.. it's a figure of speech. It was a way of saying the belief system I described, is a depressing one. |
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hansdew
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Humanism aka Atheism aka Nihilism |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
I heard an interesting (but quick and general) study last night on humanism and human rights.
Humanism as a belief system, is based on (a) Atheism, and (b) Human Rights.
So far so good, right? |
Wrong.
| Quote: |
hu·man·ism
–noun
1. any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests, values, and dignity predominate.
2. devotion to or study of the humanities.
3. (sometimes initial capital letter) the studies, principles, or culture of the humanists.
4. Philosophy. a variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God. |
Humanism is not based upon atheism. One may believe in a god and still very much be a humanist.[/quote] |
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evutch
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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true hansdew..
kinda like a "christain" smart enough to figure out there is such a thing as evolution, and our earth is billions of years old, and
there are other stars and galaxies, and universes, that we aren't the middle of anything, and some stories of the bible are just that..
something a fundamentalist can't handle and they throw a gasket over...
why is it extreme fundamentalists can't accept non absolutism?
is it an intelligence issue?
or a dogmatic induced fear, that something MAY be wrong, and IF so then the WHOLE is wrong..
poor idiots.. |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Tell me this evutch. Give me the acceptable "gray area" for this one.
(a) God exists
(b) God doesn't exist
God's existence or non-existence is absolute. Truth is absolute.
Relativism is a pagan philosophy and it is completely incorrect... at least when it comes to anything that matters.
The sky might be red to me and blue to you, but either one or both of us are wrong... we can't both be right. But on that subject in the end, who cares?
The question of God and truth is infinitely more important.
hansdew if the only thing you can do is get technical about the definition of "humanism," then clearly you don't have anything positive to contribute.
Yes, technically there is such a thing according to a website definition, as a God-fearing humanist. I've just never met one. Have you? I didn't think so. None of us have.
I probably didn't word it quite right... I'd send you the link to the discussion I saw, but, you wouldn't watch it anyway. It's not like you really care about the subject. Right?
Either way, humanism is at the very least a derivative of Atheism. Every single self-proclaimed Humanist with a capital H that I've ever met or heard of, is an Atheist, be it "strong" or "weak" Atheist. Still Atheist. And RC Sproul who is infinitely more studied on these matters agrees that humanism has a bond with atheism. But no, I don't think he or I ever thought about getting a dictionary out to see all the different possible definitions of the word. Even your definition... the very evidence you used to support your case, says that generally speaking humanists don't believe in God (or put differently 'reject the importance for a belief in God'). |
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evutch
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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i would say there are alot more god fearing humanists than what you may think..
even the baptist church, is a progressive off shoot of the protastant reformation that rebelled agaist the founding fundamentalists..
although the american versin went back to fundamentalism..
so much so, it makes some branches of the catholic church look liberal now..
i've met god fearing humanists..
although, none of them call themselves secular humanists..
matter of fact, most of them call them selves nothing..
and a few of them that DO go to church, ( hard yo believe eh?
do so at churches that satisfy their need or love of god, without the head beating bible thumpers..
( yes and a few of THEM are Baptist! imagine!)
read a little scripture, pray a little prayer, sing a song, and back to work monday..
i just find it odd that people who propose their love and "safe heavan" in God, in actuality are SO afraid, that they MIGHT be wrong, they insist on others believing the same, or else they are going to hell..
ergo, jesus loves you, burn in hell.
the T-shirt fits.
wear it. |
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tarsustom
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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evutch that was an interesting rant but, what on Earth does Baptist vs. Protestant vs. Catholic have anything to do with a self-proclaimed 'humanist' believing in God? To important things to remember here:
1. Going to church doesn't mean someone believes in God.
2. I'm talking about the specific group of people who call themselves humanists.. I'm not talking about a general, untitle group of people that are simply humane.
If being 'humanist' means just caring about other people then gee, all Christians would be humanists, wouldn't they.
No, the group 'Humanist' that I and the speaker are talking about comes with a creed/manifesto and everything. |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
Yes, technically there is such a thing according to a website definition, as a God-fearing humanist. I've just never met one. Have you? I didn't think so. None of us have.
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Not all of us who choose to believe in God fear God. There are parts of humanism I really enjoy. I also believe in God. However, I do not believe that God is to be feared. Not all Humanists are Atheists and not all Atheists are Humanists.
Humanism is really a very idealistic philosophy.
Bloody 'ell! I have to go. I'll try to finish this thought later.
BTW tarsus, I like it when you get all philosophical like this.  |
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hansdew
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| tarsustom wrote: |
Tell me this evutch. Give me the acceptable "gray area" for this one
(a) God exists
(b) God doesn't exist |
Here's your grey area:
We do not know whether it is (a) or (b).
| tom wrote: |
hansdew if the only thing you can do is get technical about the definition of "humanism," then clearly you don't have anything positive to contribute. |
Hey tom, if I'm not welcome here, then come right out and state it clearly.
| tom wrote: |
| Yes, technically there is such a thing according to a website definition, as a God-fearing humanist. I've just never met one. Have you? I didn't think so. None of us have. |
You are the one with the technically narrow definition of humanism. You are the one who is only accepting the narrowest of definitions. I've met and know plenty of god-fearing humanists. Including immediate family.
| tom wrote: |
Either way, humanism is at the very least a derivative of Atheism. Every single self-proclaimed Humanist with a capital H that I've ever met or heard of, is an Atheist, be it "strong" or "weak" Atheist. Still Atheist. |
Your premise is incorrect. |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Give me a god that scares the hell out me when I am a bad boy and rewards me when I am good boy. It's why I remember to pick up my veggies when I go shopping..  |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| hansdew wrote: |
Hey tom, if I'm not welcome here, then come right out and state it clearly.
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All views should be welcome here. We all argue and are passionate about our views, so it does get heated. But, ALL views are welcome. |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| screamzero wrote: |
| Give me a god that scares the hell out me when I am a bad boy and rewards me when I am good boy. It's why I remember to pick up my veggies when I go shopping.. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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Personanongrata
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| screamzero wrote: |
| Give me a god that scares the hell out me when I am a bad boy and rewards me when I am good boy. It's why I remember to pick up my veggies when I go shopping.. |
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Nesaie
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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OK, back a bit about to the topic at hand.
Nihilism is an interesting philosophy. I used to think it was very negative. Then I had a discussion with a buddy who called himself a nihilist. From that conversation I've realized that there is a certain freedom in that understanding.
I kinda related it to Buddhism. There is only the now, here. There is nothing else so make the best of now. It becomes an obligation to make the world better because that is all there is. I'm not really good at explaining this, plus I have other distractions at the moment....maybe if I had more time I could try to use the written word to describe what I conceptually get and attempt to employ in my daily life. |
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Soma: All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects.
Have you had your Soma today? |
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