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starman_
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 Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: dichotomy of evil |
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Evil, in early Greek tradition, was harm. Harming another person was considered evil. In this sense, evil is external suffering and therefore the soul is left to ne plus ultra (perfection). The Hebrew tradition put a little more twist on evil. It all started in Genesis with a garden, a serpent, a man, a woman and some fruit. The beginning of original sin. Man was separated from God because of internal evil and every human being on the face of the earth, from that moment on, was and is the embodiment of sin. St. Augustine's view was, anything that is not God, is evil. Is evil only harm we inflict on others, or is it also thinking about doing harm to others? How is it that all humans are born evil? We're all capable of evil deeds,and this is my point. How can a person be considered evil, if that person has never committed an evil act? Oh, I forgot, the devil made me do it.  |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Well let me start with the disclaimer that I don't think the same things are evil that the "church" (or mainstream religion by and large) thinks are evil.
To the church, sin=evil I suppose....sin/evil/wickedness...in other words.
My feeling is that, as christ said, one can be guilty of a thing even if one has not done it....Christ said if one looks upon a woman sexually or with fornication in their mind, then they have already committed the sin of fornication.....if one hates his brethren (or whomever) one has already been guilty of murder.
This is why, in my opinion.
All things start in the mind....Every concept begins first as a thought, and in fact all ACTION is the child of Thought literally.....you see a building standing there, that building first starting as nothing more than a thought in the mind of a person, with work became a reality in the physical world....but did it "exist" any less when it was in the mind? No....it existed, just not in the physical world. The same with intention or feeling....
If I wish to see you beaten up, in my mind you are getting beaten up...it doesn't matter if I have actually done the "act" or not, the act is nothing except the natural progression of the thought. |
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Saturos
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Evil to me is someone who wants to control and manipulate others to their cause.
Which in the end means that everyone is evil, even Gods.
I don´t care how powerful someone or something is but unless it wants to prove itself superior to evil then show respect to even the lowest specie ever.
Teaching is alot better than commanding... |
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screamzero
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: dichotomy of evil |
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| starman_ wrote: |
| Evil, in early Greek tradition, was harm. Harming another person was considered evil. In this sense, evil is external suffering and therefore the soul is left to ne plus ultra (perfection). The Hebrew tradition put a little more twist on evil. It all started in Genesis with a garden, a serpent, a man, a woman and some fruit. The beginning of original sin. Man was separated from God because of internal evil and every human being on the face of the earth, from that moment on, was and is the embodiment of sin. St. Augustine's view was, anything that is not God, is evil. Is evil only harm we inflict on others, or is it also thinking about doing harm to others? How is it that all humans are born evil? We're all capable of evil deeds,and this is my point. How can a person be considered evil, if that person has never committed an evil act? Oh, I forgot, the devil made me do it. |
The root of the word sin is in Greek..and it means "missing the target". I don't know if what the Hebrew's literal translation of the word they used would mean exactly the same thing. Probably not, because literal translations from one language to another is near impossible - you have to explain such a translation more appropriately with more than one word or describe its meaning thusly; with a few words.
Evil is a broad term used to indicate a negative moral or ethical judgment, often used to describe intentional acts that are cruel, unjust, or selfish. Evil is usually contrasted with good, which describes intentional acts that are kind, just, or unselfish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil
Having the fewest wants, I am nearest to the gods.
Socrates
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
Plato
Peter asked what the meaning of the parable was, and Jesus said, "Don't you understand either? Everything that goes into a man's mouth goes into his stomach and is digested and the waste go into the sewer - it does not enter into the man's mind and intellect. But the things that come out of the man's mouth come from his mind and intellect and these pollute him. For his mind and intellect produce evil reasoning and imagining - adultery and sexual debauchery, murder, theft, covetousness, deceit, blasphemy, arrogance, pride and foolishness. These are the things that pollute a man, not eating with hands not ritually cleansed. |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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So to paraphrase...it is not that which goes into the mouth which damns a man, but what comes out of it?
Am I close? |
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starman_
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
Well let me start with the disclaimer that I don't think the same things are evil that the "church" (or mainstream religion by and large) thinks are evil.
To the church, sin=evil I suppose....sin/evil/wickedness...in other words.
My feeling is that, as christ said, one can be guilty of a thing even if one has not done it....Christ said if one looks upon a woman sexually or with fornication in their mind, then they have already committed the sin of fornication.....if one hates his brethren (or whomever) one has already been guilty of murder.
This is why, in my opinion.
All things start in the mind....Every concept begins first as a thought, and in fact all ACTION is the child of Thought literally.....you see a building standing there, that building first starting as nothing more than a thought in the mind of a person, with work became a reality in the physical world....but did it "exist" any less when it was in the mind? No....it existed, just not in the physical world. The same with intention or feeling....
If I wish to see you beaten up, in my mind you are getting beaten up...it doesn't matter if I have actually done the "act" or not, the act is nothing except the natural progression of the thought. |
Your comments are, to say the least, disturbing to me. I could not help but think of George Orwell's dystopian novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four. The government not only attempts to control the citizen's speech and actions, but also their thoughts, thought crime. It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thought crime. Unfortunately, you are not alone in your opinion. I believe the majority of people think as you do, that bad or evil thoughts are immoral and should be punished. We can already see signs of our government attempting to control it's citizens speech and actions. Even more so in the UK I believe. With the fast paced advancement in technology, governments are already using different methods to attempt to discern human thought. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is already being used to detect chemical activity in the brain which could relate to memory and thoughts.
To say that mere thought without action is evil, immoral, has serious implications in today's modern society. It should be said, that if thinking is considered evil, one should be careful of expressing one's thoughts in writing. The dichotomy of evil in the Hebrew tradition, has led us to the realization that thought crime, unfortunately, is just around the corner.
If I have misinterpreted, or misunderstood your post, I apologize. |
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Questioner101
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:20 am Post subject: |
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If you think it, you've done it....ah well....goodbye cruel world...  |
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fortwynt
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| starman_ wrote: |
| fortwynt wrote: |
Well let me start with the disclaimer that I don't think the same things are evil that the "church" (or mainstream religion by and large) thinks are evil.
To the church, sin=evil I suppose....sin/evil/wickedness...in other words.
My feeling is that, as christ said, one can be guilty of a thing even if one has not done it....Christ said if one looks upon a woman sexually or with fornication in their mind, then they have already committed the sin of fornication.....if one hates his brethren (or whomever) one has already been guilty of murder.
This is why, in my opinion.
All things start in the mind....Every concept begins first as a thought, and in fact all ACTION is the child of Thought literally.....you see a building standing there, that building first starting as nothing more than a thought in the mind of a person, with work became a reality in the physical world....but did it "exist" any less when it was in the mind? No....it existed, just not in the physical world. The same with intention or feeling....
If I wish to see you beaten up, in my mind you are getting beaten up...it doesn't matter if I have actually done the "act" or not, the act is nothing except the natural progression of the thought. |
Your comments are, to say the least, disturbing to me. I could not help but think of George Orwell's dystopian novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four. The government not only attempts to control the citizen's speech and actions, but also their thoughts, thought crime. It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thought crime. Unfortunately, you are not alone in your opinion. I believe the majority of people think as you do, that bad or evil thoughts are immoral and should be punished. We can already see signs of our government attempting to control it's citizens speech and actions. Even more so in the UK I believe. With the fast paced advancement in technology, governments are already using different methods to attempt to discern human thought. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is already being used to detect chemical activity in the brain which could relate to memory and thoughts.
To say that mere thought without action is evil, immoral, has serious implications in today's modern society. It should be said, that if thinking is considered evil, one should be careful of expressing one's thoughts in writing. The dichotomy of evil in the Hebrew tradition, has led us to the realization that thought crime, unfortunately, is just around the corner.
If I have misinterpreted, or misunderstood your post, I apologize. |
I see exactly what you mean.....and on its face it may seem similar to what I am saying....however...
I think there is a difference between state power/sanctions/laws and spiritual principles.....I don't think God is sitting up there ready to whap you on the head with a stick for things you do...rather I think that you naturally reap the consequences of what you sow...whether in thought or in deed...I don't think it requires God to do ANything necessarily.....you think bad things and bad things will happen....very simple.
Let me say this though "bad" may be different from one person to the next I suppose....I think it is the underlying priciple involved that matters not simply that this or that religious text "says" something is "evil".....
Thought is the father of action......all action originates in thought....when one is thinking seriously about some topic they are experiencing literally the same typse of emotions (or imagine they are) and impulses they would feel if they were actually doing the thing....therefore it is the same in "deed"...but as far as a state sanctioned and man-made punishment for thought alone...no, to me this is unacceptable....insomuch as man is concerned and "reality" and living under the law, I think it very foul to be arrested etc for something one hasnt even done yet. |
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starman_
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| fortwynt wrote: |
| starman_ wrote: |
| fortwynt wrote: |
Well let me start with the disclaimer that I don't think the same things are evil that the "church" (or mainstream religion by and large) thinks are evil.
To the church, sin=evil I suppose....sin/evil/wickedness...in other words.
My feeling is that, as christ said, one can be guilty of a thing even if one has not done it....Christ said if one looks upon a woman sexually or with fornication in their mind, then they have already committed the sin of fornication.....if one hates his brethren (or whomever) one has already been guilty of murder.
This is why, in my opinion.
All things start in the mind....Every concept begins first as a thought, and in fact all ACTION is the child of Thought literally.....you see a building standing there, that building first starting as nothing more than a thought in the mind of a person, with work became a reality in the physical world....but did it "exist" any less when it was in the mind? No....it existed, just not in the physical world. The same with intention or feeling....
If I wish to see you beaten up, in my mind you are getting beaten up...it doesn't matter if I have actually done the "act" or not, the act is nothing except the natural progression of the thought. |
Your comments are, to say the least, disturbing to me. I could not help but think of George Orwell's dystopian novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four. The government not only attempts to control the citizen's speech and actions, but also their thoughts, thought crime. It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thought crime. Unfortunately, you are not alone in your opinion. I believe the majority of people think as you do, that bad or evil thoughts are immoral and should be punished. We can already see signs of our government attempting to control it's citizens speech and actions. Even more so in the UK I believe. With the fast paced advancement in technology, governments are already using different methods to attempt to discern human thought. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) is already being used to detect chemical activity in the brain which could relate to memory and thoughts.
To say that mere thought without action is evil, immoral, has serious implications in today's modern society. It should be said, that if thinking is considered evil, one should be careful of expressing one's thoughts in writing. The dichotomy of evil in the Hebrew tradition, has led us to the realization that thought crime, unfortunately, is just around the corner.
If I have misinterpreted, or misunderstood your post, I apologize. |
I see exactly what you mean.....and on its face it may seem similar to what I am saying....however...
I think there is a difference between state power/sanctions/laws and spiritual principles.....I don't think God is sitting up there ready to whap you on the head with a stick for things you do...rather I think that you naturally reap the consequences of what you sow...whether in thought or in deed...I don't think it requires God to do ANything necessarily.....you think bad things and bad things will happen....very simple.
Let me say this though "bad" may be different from one person to the next I suppose....I think it is the underlying priciple involved that matters not simply that this or that religious text "says" something is "evil".....
Thought is the father of action......all action originates in thought....when one is thinking seriously about some topic they are experiencing literally the same typse of emotions (or imagine they are) and impulses they would feel if they were actually doing the thing....therefore it is the same in "deed"...but as far as a state sanctioned and man-made punishment for thought alone...no, to me this is unacceptable....insomuch as man is concerned and "reality" and living under the law, I think it very foul to be arrested etc for something one hasnt even done yet. |
| Quote: |
| I think there is a difference between state power/sanctions/laws and spiritual principles |
It is the responsibility of State to support, affirm, and promote spiritual principles within the public domain. These principles are universal and are not specific to any one religion. The evidence for this support can be found in the pledge of allegiance, the national anthem, patriotic songs, monuments, and currency. We are one nation under God with the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These are universal spiritual principles which the State has a responsibility to ensure every citizen has a right to.
| Quote: |
| I don't think God is sitting up there ready to whap you on the head with a stick for things you do |
No, he's sitting up there ready to condemn you to eternity in hell, if according to you, one only THINKS an evil thought.
| Quote: |
| you think bad things and bad things will happen....very simple |
Oh really. So according to your logic, think good things and good things will happen. Sorry but life isn't that simple as you put it. Bad things will happen to people with good thoughts as well as bad thoughts.
| Quote: |
| Let me say this though "bad" may be different from one person to the next I suppose....I think it is the underlying priciple involved that matters not simply that this or that religious text "says" something is "evil" |
On this I can agree. Religion has nothing to do with evil, but will support evil deeds in the name of God.
| Quote: |
| Thought is the father of action......all action originates in thought....when one is thinking seriously about some topic they are experiencing literally the same typse of emotions (or imagine they are) and impulses they would feel if they were actually doing the thing....therefore it is the same in "deed" |
Yes action comes from thought, but not always. It works two ways. Action does not follow every thought and acts are taken all of the time without thinking first. As far as experiencing literally, types of emotions, impulses one might feel, can only be felt if one has actually done the deed. A person can think seriously about killing another human being in war. But let me say, unless you've actually killed another human being in a war, the emotions you might have from just thinking about it, is far from reality. Evil can only manifest itself through the actions of one human being towards another. Evil, in my opinion, is external. |
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TNuke
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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The statement attributed to St. Augustine, taken out of context, is by itself incorrect. What that statement fails to recognize is that humans posses the capacity for good and for evil. And more to the point, humans possess the ability to distinguish good from evil.
A dog which sees a little kitten will approach the kitten, sniff it, nose it around, play with it, then kill it and eat it. The dog has no concept of good and evil. The dog is neither good nor evil since it does not posses the ability to distinguish good from evil. Lions attacking antelope or wolves attacking a cow are not good or evil. The terms have no meaning for them. That's what separates us from the animals. We can differentiate.
Humans are not "born evil". Even when religion uses that phrase it is an over-simplification meant to appeal to the people on a basic level. Religion being based on scripture and repetitive reading of that scripture many times resorts to poetic form which is meant to sound appealing but may not contain the true meaning of the scripture from which its based. Some translations of scripture have fallen victim to this tendency.
A young boy may find a magnifying glass and once realizing its potential when exposed to the rays of the sun may go out and kill ants. But the boy soon tires of this activity and eventually realizes that watching things die is not nearly as interesting as watching things live. Ants are far more interesting to watch scurrying about picking up heavy objects and taking them back to the mound. If some other insect encounters the mound the ants will come out and defend their territory. Other ants may come and carry out war. Yet others may enslave the ants of another mound. When the boy grows up he trades in his magnifying glass for a microscope. Time to put away childish things. |
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starman_
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| TNuke wrote: |
The statement attributed to St. Augustine, taken out of context, is by itself incorrect. What that statement fails to recognize is that humans posses the capacity for good and for evil. And more to the point, humans possess the ability to distinguish good from evil.
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I agree, humans by their own nature, know the difference between good and evil. I do believe my statement about St. Augustine is correct. God is good, good is God. Augustine believed that all things created by God are good. That God being God, cannot create evil. So, whatever is not of God is evil. This presents a problem for the Protestant Christian. Since God creates only the good, how is it, according to the Protestant Christian, we are all born with sin,”evil”? I believe their answer would be because of free will. Augustine believed that free will given by God is the reason for evil in the world. He did not believe humans were born with evil, sin, as the Protestant Christian does, because God cannot create evil. This, in the Hebrew tradition, is the dichotomy of evil. |
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hansdew
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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If your god did not create evil.
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| That God being God, cannot create evil. So, whatever is not of God is evil. |
Then what created evil cuz' my understanding is that your god created all things AND all things includes evil. |
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starman_
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| hansdew wrote: |
If your god did not create evil.
| Quote: |
| That God being God, cannot create evil. So, whatever is not of God is evil. |
Then what created evil cuz' my understanding is that your god created all things AND all things includes evil. |
I have no belief in God. I'm the evil atheist just trying to shake things up a bit. |
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TNuke
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| starman_ wrote: |
| I do believe my statement about St. Augustine is correct. God is good, good is God. |
If that's what you meant then point taken.
| starman_ wrote: |
| Augustine believed that all things created by God are good. That God being God, cannot create evil. So, whatever is not of God is evil. |
Reasonable. So far so good.
| starman_ wrote: |
| This presents a problem for the Protestant Christian. Since God creates only the good, how is it, according to the Protestant Christian, we are all born with sin,”evil”? |
Not quite, you went from A to Z with out all the intervening letters. God also created free will. And any entity with free will can choose good or evil. If a person chooses evil, that's not God's fault. God created the chess board. He didn't move the pieces for you.
I never liked that "original sin" thing, always thought it was a faulty concept. But its simply the recognition that we all suffer because Adam and Eve made a conscious choice to disobey God. But, there is a subtle hint that God knew this would happen and it was expected. We must learn from evil. We must evolve.
If you ever get a chance to read the long version of Adam & Eve (as opposed to the Bible's abbreviated version) then all will be very clear. The long version is not canonical of course. God tested A&E many times by "sending" or "allowing" or "masquerading as" Satan to deceive A&E. Several times Adam commits suicide but is revived by God.
| starman_ wrote: |
| I believe their answer would be because of free will. Augustine believed that free will given by God is the reason for evil in the world. He did not believe humans were born with evil, sin, as the Protestant Christian does, because God cannot create evil. |
Looks like you worked your way out of your own trap. The problem was in thinking that evil is a created entity. It is not. Satan is not evil. Satan chose evil.
Actually, science has a very similar concept. The abyss of chaos is the absence of energy. The default condition is chaos. Unless something happens to create energy then all you have is chaos. Without God, you have chaos (evil). With God you have energy (good).
| starman_ wrote: |
| This, in the Hebrew tradition, is the dichotomy of evil. |
Well, that dichotomy is one of interpretation and perception. God didn't have to create evil. It is simply the labeling of what you get without God. |
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