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blackvault
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:57 am Post subject: Some on left target McCain's war record |
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By: Ben Smith
June 30, 2008 11:19 AM EST
The highest voltage third rail of this presidential campaign may not be race, sex, or age, but Senator John McCain's military service.
McCain's campaign Sunday issued a pair of outraged statements after retired general and Barack Obama supporter Wesley Clark said he didn't think that McCain’s service as a fighter pilot and prisoner of war was relevant to running the country. Obama has consistently praised McCain's service, and called him "a genuine American hero."
But farther to the left—and among some of McCain's conservative enemies as well—harsher attacks are circulating. Critics have accused McCain of war crimes for bombing targets in Hanoi in the 1960s. Sunday, a widely read liberal blog accused McCain of "disloyalty" during his captivity in Vietnam for his coerced participation in propaganda films and interviews after he’d been tortured.
"A lot of people don't know… that McCain made a propaganda video for the enemy while he was in captivity," wrote Americablog's John Aravosis. "Putting that bit of disloyalty aside, what exactly is McCain's military experience that prepares him for being commander in chief?"
"Getting shot down, tortured, and then doing propaganda for the enemy is not command experience," Aravosis wrote in the blog post, entitled "Honestly, besides being tortured, what did McCain do to excel in the military?"
McCain's camp responded sharply to the Americablog posting Sunday night.
"The American people know that John McCain's record of service and sacrifice is not a matter of debate. He has written about and discussed his service as a POW extensively—often in excruciating and painful detail," said McCain spokesman Brian Rogers. "The American people will judge harshly anyone who demeans or attacks that service."
McCain has written repeatedly of his service, including a long 1973 magazine article and in his memoir, Faith of My Fathers. A Navy aviator from a military family, he was shot down on his 23rd sortie over Vietnam on October 26, 1967. His mission was to bomb a power plant in the North Vietnamese capital. Already suffering from broken limbs, he was beaten by a crowd before being taken to a POW camp. After being tortured there, he participated in some Vietnamese propaganda efforts.
"I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine," he later wrote.
But he later defied his captors by refusing to meet with anti-war delegations from abroad, he wrote, and also refused the most valuable special treatment he was offered: Early release.
"I did not want to go out of order," he later wrote. He was finally released on March 14, 1973.
Obama and the Democratic establishment haven't challenged McCain's record. Indeed, even Clark's words came in response to a direct question from CBS's Bob Schieffer on the specific relevance of McCain's service to the presidency.
West Virginia Senator Jay Rockefeller in April cut a bit closer, suggesting that McCain's days as a fighter pilot were themselves a critique of his character.
"What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground?" he asked. "He doesn't know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues."
Rockefeller promptly, abjectly apologized, praising McCain's "honorable and noble service to our country" and deploring his own "inaccurate and wrong analogy." His apology reflected a conventional political wisdom that McCain's heroism is too well established, and a climate of respect for soldiers too strong, for attacks on his service to do anything but backfire.
But Aravosis, who reiterated his criticism in an interview with Politico Sunday night, isn't the only one to test this line of attack.
The newsletter CounterPunch published this April an article by Doug Valentine headed "Meet the Real John McCain: North Vietnam's Go-To Collaborator."
Valentine suggested McCain contemplated suicide—something the candidate has written about, and attributed in part to his guilt at not withstanding torture—because he was a "war criminal" whose bombs fell on civilians.
McCain, who sought—along with Senator John Kerry—to debunk claims that Vietnam still held American prisoners into the 1990s, has been attacked in similar terms by leaders of POW/MIA movement, whom he and Kerry cast as charlatans.
That movement has produced the most outlandish attacks on McCain, including widely dismissed and unsubstantiated claims that McCain was not tortured and a smear casting him as a "Manchurian candidate."
But most of the attacks on McCain's war record are now coming from the left. In a Huffington Post blog, a former editor of Mother Jones magazine, Jeffrey Klein, called—in tones reminiscent of right-wing attacks on Kerry in 2004—on McCain to release elements of his Navy record that the candidate has not made available to the public or the press.
"Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency," he wrote. As to why, Klein speculated that "From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals."
David Fenton, a prominent progressive public relations executive who works for MoveOn and other groups, also inquired in old anti-Vietnam war circles about details of McCain's Navy sorties, a source familiar with the inquiries told Politico. Fenton declined to comment on the inquiries, and a person familiar with them said they were unconnected to his work for MoveOn.
Some anti-war activists link McCain's current position on Iraq to his time in Vietnam.
"I wouldn't characterize anybody who fought in Vietnam as a war hero," said Medea Benjamin, a co-founder of the theatrical anti-war group Code Pink. "In 23 bombing sorties, there must have been civilians that were killed and there's no heroism to that."
"Anyone who can't look back and admit how wrong it was to be in Vietnam and be killing civilians deserves to be challenged," she said, though she stressed that her group is more focused on McCain's present support for the war in Iraq than on his past.
Benjamin said she had her doubts about whether criticism of McCain's record could catch on, and she's not the only skeptic. Even Valentine, the CounterPunch author, said McCain's wartime experience could only be questioned "off-Broadway."
Others, however, disagree, and the increasing buzz of emails and blog posts—the new equivalent on the left of what, in the 1990s, would have been stirrings on conservative talk radio—suggest that this line of attack won't go away, at least not from elements of the energized pro-Obama grassroots, and from parts of the anti-war left.
A search of Obama’s community website, my.BarackObama.com, finds two posts calling McCain a “war criminal.”
Noam Chomsky, the linguist and activist, said in an email that he thought Americans should question the relevance of McCain's torture in an unjust war to his campaign.
"The questions could scarcely even be understood within the reigning intellectual and moral culture—though I don't doubt that much of the population would understand," Chomsky said.
And Aravosis was unapologetic about his charge of "disloyalty," citing the similar charges levied at Kerry from the right in 2004.
"McCain is running for president of the United States, not the student council. He should stop feigning shock and outrage and start answering some very legitimate questions about his character and his experience," he said in a message to Politico. "Well, the Republicans sported Band-Aids to mock John Kerry's medals from Vietnam. They mocked his injuries in war."
"McCain isn't being mocked, he's being questioned," he said.
For now, that is a minority view on the left. Democrats took from the Vietnam era the lesson that they should not attack soldiers' service, and McCain's Senate colleagues of both parties—including Obama— have expressed deep respect for his service and his suffering. He also worked after the war to heal some of its open wounds, winning the unexpected appreciation of some anti-Vietnam war stalwarts, who are now damping down the attempts to attack his war record.
"I know and like McCain," Tom Hayden, a former California State Senator and prominent anti-war activist, told Politico in an email. "From my own perspective and that of many anti-war activists of that era, the fact that he bombed North Vietnam some 25 times, probably killing civilians, gets blurred with the facts that he suffered through that long prison ordeal, then also went on to promote diplomatic relations between the two countries."
"It's like asking a guy that served his jail term here—you'd say he's done his time so that's behind him," Hayden said.
© 2008 Capitol News Company, LLC
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=D8AE8182-3048-5C12-000F1939D24BE0B4 |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Some on the right targeted John Kerry's war record. |
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Some on the right targeted John Kerry's war record. |
Yes , you're right. That was after the fact that the soldiers Kerry served his tour with, came out and said what Kerry was saying never happened.
Kerry lied a lot about his service to this Nation.He even received 2 questionable Purple Hearts.
He also threw his ribbons over the White House fence when he returned. Even if they where his.They were not the medals ,just the ribbons.
I have yet to see someone from McCains' unit come forward and say he is lying.
BloodStone... |
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Neal51
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I think since Kerry's nemesis were called "swift boaters"
McCains should be called "plane crashers"  |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| BloodStone wrote: |
I have yet to see someone from McCains' unit come forward and say he is lying.
BloodStone... |
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_2,00.html
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Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain
Phillip Butler | March 27, 2008
As some of you might know, John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.
When I was a Plebe (4th classman, or freshman) at the Naval Academy in 1957-58, I was assigned to the 17th Company for my four years there. In those days we had about 3,600 midshipmen spread among 24 companies, thus about 150 midshipmen to a company. As fortune would have it, John, a First Classman (senior) and his room mate lived directly across the hall from me and my two room mates. Believe me when I say that back then I would never in a million or more years have dreamed that the crazy guy across the hall would someday be a Senator and candidate for President!
John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion he took me with him to escape "over the wall" in the dead of night. He had a taxi cab waiting for us that took us to a bar some 7 miles away. John had a few beers, but forbid me to drink (watching out for me I guess) and made me drink cokes. I could tell many other midshipman stories about John that year and he unbelievably managed to graduate though he spent the majority of his first class year on restriction for the stuff he did get caught doing. In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates.
People often ask if I was a Prisoner of War with John McCain. My answer is always "No - John McCain was a POW with me." The reason is I was there for 8 years and John got there 2 ½ years later, so he was a POW for 5 ½ years. And we have our own seniority system, based on time as a POW.
John's treatment as a POW:
1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals.
2) John was badly injured when he was shot down. Both arms were broken and he had other wounds from his ejection. Unfortunately this was often the case - new POW's arriving with broken bones and serious combat injuries. Many died from their wounds. Medical care was non-existent to rudimentary. Relief from pain was almost never given and often the wounds were used as an available way to torture the POW. Because John's father was the Naval Commander in the Pacific theater, he was exploited with TV interviews while wounded. These film clips have now been widely seen. But it must be known that many POW's suffered similarly, not just John. And many were similarly exploited for political propaganda.
3) John was offered, and refused, "early release." Many of us were given this offer. It meant speaking out against your country and lying about your treatment to the press. You had to "admit" that the U.S. was criminal and that our treatment was "lenient and humane." So I, like numerous others, refused the offer. This was obviously something none of us could accept. Besides, we were bound by our service regulations, Geneva Conventions and loyalties to refuse early release until all the POW's were released, with the sick and wounded going first.
4) John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor - 8, Service Crosses - 42, Silver Stars - 590, Bronze Stars - 958 and Purple Hearts - 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well. But it must be remembered that he was one hero among many - not uniquely so as his campaigns would have people believe.
John McCain served his time as a POW with great courage, loyalty and tenacity. More that 600 of us did the same. After our repatriation a census showed that 95% of us had been tortured at least once. The Vietnamese were quite democratic about it. There were many heroes in North Vietnam. I saw heroism every day there. And we motivated each other to endure and succeed far beyond what any of us thought we had in ourselves. Succeeding as a POW is a group sport, not an individual one. We all supported and encouraged each other to survive and succeed. John knows that. He was not an individual POW hero. He was a POW who surmounted the odds with the help of many comrades, as all of us did.
I furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate.
Most of us who survived that experience are now in our late 60's and 70's. Sadly, we have died and are dying off at a greater rate than our non-POW contemporaries. We experienced injuries and malnutrition that are coming home to roost. So I believe John's age (73) and survival expectation are not good for being elected to serve as our President for 4 or more years.
I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button.
It is also disappointing to see him take on and support Bush's war in Iraq, even stating we might be there for another 100 years. For me John represents the entrenched and bankrupt policies of Washington-as-usual. The past 7 years have proven to be disastrous for our country. And I believe John's views on war, foreign policy, economics, environment, health care, education, national infrastructure and other important areas are much the same as those of the Bush administration.
I'm disappointed to see John represent himself politically in ways that are not accurate. He is not a moderate Republican. On some issues he is a maverick. But his voting record is far to the right. I fear for his nominations to our Supreme Court, and the consequent continuing loss of individual freedoms, especially regarding moral and religious issues. John is not a religious person, but he has taken every opportunity to ally himself with some really obnoxious and crazy fundamentalist ministers lately. I was also disappointed to see him cozy up to Bush because I know he hates that man. He disingenuously and famously put his arm around the guy, even after Bush had intensely disrespected him with lies and slander. So on these and many other instances, I don't see that John is the "straight talk express" he markets himself to be.
Senator John Sidney McCain, III is a remarkable man who has made enormous personal achievements. And he is a man that I am proud to call a fellow POW who "Returned With Honor." That's our POW motto. But since many of you keep asking what I think of him, I've decided to write it out. In short, I think John Sidney McCain, III is a good man, but not someone I will vote for in the upcoming election to be our President of the United States.
About Phillip Butler
Doctor Phillip Butler is a 1961 graduate of the United States Naval Academy and a former light-attack carrier pilot. In 1965 he was shot down over North Vietnam where he spent eight years as a prisoner of war. He is a highly decorated combat veteran who was awarded two Silver Stars, two Legion of Merits, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Heart medals.
After his repatriation in 1973 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at San Diego and became a Navy Organizational Effectiveness consultant. He completed his Navy career in 1981 as a professor of management at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, California. He is now a peace and justice activist with Veterans for Peace. |
Ok, there is someone who was in the POW camps with McCain who says McCain is a liar.
Now you can't say that you have yet to hear of anyone, who McCain served with, say he's a liar. |
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Well there is a lot of stuff in that hit piece Rob, But I still don't see McCain lying about his service? The stuff you list there is well know to people .
I thought this was gonna be something new. It is old news. The guy is basically saying everything everyone already knows. How is that like Kerry?
Are you trying to say it was John McCains' fault his father was an Admiral ,so he received less torture, and more medical treatment then the rest ? I'm not getting you're point?
I don't see how you make the comparison? McCain is not going to be swift boated ,cause he never disputed any of what you just posted? Kerry did. He flat out lied about almost every aspect of his service.Big difference.
BloodStone... |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Do you get off on being bias? It's a hit piece when it's against the guy you support, but it's the word of God if it's against someone you don't support.
You said you never heard of anyone that served with McCain say he's a liar... Well then you're a liar too if that's the case, seeing how you say this is old news to you, and this vet says McCain didn't get tortured for 5 years as McCain led people to believe... It's about as important an issue as Obama being a Muslim when he was 2. Just because McCain didn't dispute it doesn't take away from the fact that he never corrected anyone until he was called out on it.
Spare me the hypocritical election year partisanship, the "we don't recall bashing the guy in the primary" garbage, feed it to someone else, since I voted for McCain in the NJ primary, back when it was still a race, back when it was uncool to be a McCain supporter if you were a Republican, unlike a lot of hypocrites on this board, who supported the usual suspects in the media in their attacks on McCain's conservatism, or lack thereof, but suddenly sing his praises now as if nothing ever happened, suddenly post garbage making McCain look a fricken saint and a genius, the people who post today support for McCain's economic plans, but jumped all over his lack of knowledge on the subject 6 months ago... Republican members of this board, who 6 months ago, attacked him for his Keating 5 involvement, his amnesty bill and border security stance, his shoulder rubbing with liberal Democrats, in fact Republicans made a bigger deal out of Philip Butler's article, as a reason not to vote for McCain, than Democrats did! It was the Republican's who were swift boating McCain.
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Sorry you have become yet another one of the angry bitter posters here.
All I'm saying is you're post did nothing to support you're argument. It looks to me like you really don't see the difference between Kerry swift boats, and one guy who is basically pissed off that McCain wasn't tortured for 5 years. So freaken what? The man is a war hero, and Obama has no military expeirience.
All Obama has is trying to bash the military record of a war hero. He will burn himself though, and this was my point from begining. He will overuse this tactic, and it will make him look like the small infantile man that he is.The reason being Kerry flat out lie about his time in Nam. McCain has one guy crying about him not being tortured for 5 years. My god give me a break!
and try to mellow out a little, you're gonna pop somethin.
BloodStone... |
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BlackJim
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| BloodStone wrote: |
Sorry you have become yet another one of the angry bitter posters here.
All I'm saying is you're post did nothing to support you're argument. It looks to me like you really don't see the difference between Kerry swift boats, and one guy who is basically pissed off that McCain wasn't tortured for 5 years. So freaken what? The man is a war hero, and Obama has no military expeirience.
All Obama has is trying to bash the military record of a war hero. He will burn himself though, and this was my point from begining. He will overuse this tactic, and it will make him look like the small infantile man that he is.The reason being Kerry flat out lie about his time in Nam. McCain has one guy crying about him not being tortured for 5 years. My god give me a break!
and try to mellow out a little, you're gonna pop somethin.
BloodStone... |
I suppose being in agreement with you, we stand the chance of not being deemed an angry poster. 
Guess What ? |
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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I suppose being in agreement with you, we stand the chance of not being deemed an angry poster.
Guess What ? |
Ummmm, I just asked him a question, He was the one throwin the fit.
Oh, and mind you're own buisiness. Thanks...
BloodStone... |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BloodStone wrote: |
Sorry you have become yet another one of the angry bitter posters here.
All I'm saying is you're post did nothing to support you're argument. It looks to me like you really don't see the difference between Kerry swift boats, and one guy who is basically pissed off that McCain wasn't tortured for 5 years. So freaken what? The man is a war hero, and Obama has no military expeirience.
All Obama has is trying to bash the military record of a war hero. He will burn himself though, and this was my point from begining. He will overuse this tactic, and it will make him look like the small infantile man that he is.The reason being Kerry flat out lie about his time in Nam. McCain has one guy crying about him not being tortured for 5 years. My god give me a break!
and try to mellow out a little, you're gonna pop somethin.
BloodStone... |
One guy that is pissed off?
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/17/in-1992-pows-accused-mccain-of-collaborating-with-vietnamese/
Head of POW/MIA rips McCain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTe7cuyx6J4
Yep, it's just one Vietnam vet against McCain.
And I do seem to recall people on this board, opposed to Kerry, using Vietnam vets dislike for him well before his unit started giving him crap.
Nowhere in my posts did I even say I believed or agreed with the claims...
I'm an angry bitter person? No, I'm just one of the few registered Republican's on this board that has the balls to call a spade a spade. Sorry, I'm not a shill for the Republican party, unlike certain individuals here.
You wanna talk about Obama attacking McCain? Didn't your man-crush Dubya wage an all out smear campaign against McCain in 2000? Does Ted Sampley ring a bell? I mean not only was he a major force behind the swiftboating of Kerry, he was also behind Dubya's attacks on McCain in 2000, genius... The man behind "Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry", was out calling McCain a traitor, a coward, and a Manchurian Candidate... And while YOU will probably say Bush had nothing to do with it, McCain, when not playing political footsies with the president to get votes from people like yourself, would beg to differ with you, as he didn't exactly pull punches about who he thought was behind it... But that happened 8 years ago, and I'm sure asking you to remember something from just 5 minutes ago is asking a lot for your neurons to muster.
Totally different my ass. Give me a break hypocrite. |
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Got news for ya Rob, I can't stand McCain, I think he was a bad choice for true conservatives this time around, I was not even a big fan of Bush, I am glad however that Bush was elected over Kerry, Much like I will be much happier if McCain is elected over Obama.
McCain is a war hero, Kerry is far from it. That's all I'm trying to say genius.
BloodStone... |
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rob61872
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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BloodStone
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Back to bed huh.
Figures.
BloodStone... |
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