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Religion and Socioeconomics
July 8, 2010
6:00 pm
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Aquarian
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"A religion true to its nature must also be concerned about man's social conditions. Any religion that professes to be concerned with the souls of men and is not concerned with the slums that damn them, the economic conditions that strangle them, & the social conditions that cripple them is a dry-as-dust religion"- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Discuss....

*I would include the word "human" instead of "man", or "men" to make the wisdom more inclusive, but you guys get the point* 😛

The Few assume to be the deputies, but they are often only the despoilers of the Many.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

July 8, 2010
6:06 pm
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greeney2
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Tell us which ones do not care, and have active programs for it, Aquarian.

July 8, 2010
6:21 pm
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Aquarian
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I'm surprised at that statement, Greeney. By the looks of the Christian Fundamentalists in this country, it seems that they would rather dedicate their faith to squashing homosexuality, abortion and support Zionist Israel.

Private charity should not be confused with actual steps taken to fundamentally restructure a dog-eat-dog economic model we're currently oppressed by.

The Few assume to be the deputies, but they are often only the despoilers of the Many.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

July 8, 2010
6:41 pm
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greeney2
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You brought it up, now see if you can deliver. Tell us one example of a religion who does not care about the surrounding economic problems, of their church or place of worship.

You make a blanket statment and so far have not backed it up. The ball is in your court.

July 8, 2010
6:47 pm
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frrostedman
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"Aquarian" wrote: I'm surprised at that statement, Greeney. By the looks of the Christian Fundamentalists in this country, it seems that they would rather dedicate their faith to squashing homosexuality, abortion and support Zionist Israel.

Private charity should not be confused with actual steps taken to fundamentally restructure a dog-eat-dog economic model we're currently oppressed by.

The only people "oppressed" by Capitalism are those who want to work but for whatever reason can't. That's where charity comes in. And there are far fewer people in that category than you would probably suggest.

Anyone who is capable of succeeding in Capitalism, fails solely on a voluntary basis and makes a substandard living as a result. Their choice. This is where charity and government programs should back off and spend their time helping the truly needy.

What hurts Capitalism more than anything is the people who take advantage of charity and government programs.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

July 8, 2010
7:18 pm
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greeney2
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Aquarian, one time made the statement that homeless people should be allowed to move into empty forclosed homes, as if the banks that owned them, were not a factor. Maybe his logic is that any bank, church or religion, should just take every dime they have first and feed the homeless, and turn the churches into a flop house to sleep in, for thousands of people. Just forclose on properties and let homeless people move in rent free. The markets shouldn't sell food while people are hungry, and profits from everything should be given to the needy. If you have a second car, you should be required to let people without one use it, if they need one.

By that logic, Aquarian should be required to open his home up to the government assigning any spare rooms, or his sofa to anyone in need, on any day, and that all the food in the cupboards should be given to them as well. Since he doesn;t need the extra bedroom, it should be given away with no regard to Aquarian. If you have enough food to store it in a cupboard, you don't need it, but someone hungrey does. Even you Aquarian, enjoy capitalism in that what you pay for and earn is yours, and you are not forced to give it away. You are also just as free to be self employed or to employ others, providing them with incomes from your ideas. Bussiness is not the ememy, it is the friend, that provides jobs and commerce.

I'm wondering just how you are oppressed at all Aquarian? You forget Aquarian that every corner church has bills to pay also. They have rent and utilities just like you have. For you charity is what you can afford after everything else is taken care of, but your logic is businesses and religions should take care of charity first, and if there is anything left pay the bills.

You blab about homosexuality and abortion, however they are both totally legal and protected by the Constitution, so what is the oppression you are talking about? We have specific laws that the Supreme Court has upheld, so what is the problem?

July 9, 2010
7:37 am
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"frrostedman" wrote: [quote="Aquarian"]I'm surprised at that statement, Greeney. By the looks of the Christian Fundamentalists in this country, it seems that they would rather dedicate their faith to squashing homosexuality, abortion and support Zionist Israel.

Private charity should not be confused with actual steps taken to fundamentally restructure a dog-eat-dog economic model we're currently oppressed by.

The only people "oppressed" by Capitalism are those who want to work but for whatever reason can't. That's where charity comes in. And there are far fewer people in that category than you would probably suggest.

Anyone who is capable of succeeding in Capitalism, fails solely on a voluntary basis and makes a substandard living as a result. Their choice. This is where charity and government programs should back off and spend their time helping the truly needy.

What hurts Capitalism more than anything is the people who take advantage of charity and government programs.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

July 9, 2010
8:05 am
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Halfabo
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"Aquarian" wrote: I'm surprised at that statement, Greeney. By the looks of the Christian Fundamentalists in this country, it seems that they would rather dedicate their faith to squashing homosexuality, abortion and support Zionist Israel.

Private charity should not be confused with actual steps taken to fundamentally restructure a dog-eat-dog economic model we're currently oppressed by.

Hate to burst your bubble Aquarian but, Churches do more in ghettos and slums around the world than any secular organizations ever thought of doing. The Catholic Church that you hate so much has a presence in every major city working with children of the inner city, working with the poor of those cities. Protestant Churches also work closely with underprivileged children, working to reform drug addicts, working to find work for people to enable them to support themselves.

And guess what? It is the dog-eat-dog economics, the free trade capitalism that makes all that possible. There are also poor people in communist countries, where Churches are not allowed. What do they have? Meager handouts from the government, and still living on a starvation diet. And these aren't people who are at the same low level as America's poor. These are people who by comparison would be closer to America's middle class, working people, who cannot make a living because there is no free trade. The people who are at the bottom of the rung in those countries, live like the rats in America's major cities. Why? Communist countries, don't allow Churches and religion, and by default, charity and good works go out the window.

July 10, 2010
9:05 pm
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This is a very interesting topic...and one which requires much musing.

Unfortunately time constrainst do not allow me to do this today but I will be reading and thinking/musing upon this topic and reply when constraints allow.

This is a very good topicc or example to illustrate the way of men verses the way of God.

*I would include the word "human" instead of "man", or "men" to make the wisdom more inclusive, but you guys get the point*

I dont want to include the word "human"

But instead use the generic term man...implying "men"..male and female. The nation/nations of man...and in particular nations of men under God.

Human is a social construct to take away from men by control..and guilt conditioning..victimization.....without them being aware that this is taking place. That somehow human and human reasoning/feelings is the apex..the epitome of everything. I dont think so.

Orangetom

July 11, 2010
12:41 pm
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frrostedman
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I have a half brother who is now 54 years old. Since the day he left home at 16 years old, he has worked just a few jobs and only short periods with each. He absolutely hates work and has always had an attitude of entitlement. It all started when as a child he was completely spoiled and coddled by his mother, but that's another story.

The thing is, he has spent his entire life dodging work and freeloading off of his friends. Well, that was until he hit about 30 years old when he ran out of friends who would be gullible enough to take him in. Even while living rent free with friends who were kind enough to take him in, they would expect him to work around the house to earn his keep. Well, after months of excuses, "I'm sick," "I'm depressed," etc., they would eventually kick him out on the street for being a lazy, sluggard, freeloading, do-nothing, user.

And funny thing is, he is so stubborn, he would rather sleep on park benches and stand in line at soup kitchens, than work for a living.

Well anyway like I said that was until he hit about 30 years old when he figured something out. As long as he could convince a therapist that he was really depressed and mentally unstable, he could get a note from the doctor. That note, when handed over to the government, entitles him to a social security check every month. These checks I believe are around 700 to 800 each. So that's what he's been doing for over 20 years. Soaking our Social Security system for everything he could get, including free healthcare, free prescriptions, low-rent government housing etc.

He has always had an internet connection, a state of the art computer, and several expensive musical instruments including a $7,500 harp he likes to play now and then. He eats well and lives in a decent apartment. You see, his tastes are really expensive. Don't ever buy him a gift unless it's something really rare and expensive, or else he won't appreciate it... but I digress again.

So here's what really frosts me more than anything. He absolutely hates our government, believes he's being "oppressed," and wants to leave the country. I've said before, he is a Liberal Progressive Socialist. And he thinks he is entitled to a LOT more than what he's getting, and he holds our government completely responsible for his substandard living.

Personally, I think he is a Socialist out of convenience and selfishness; for the simple fact that he doesn't want to work and wants the government to provide everything for him.

He's married to another Progressive Liberal Socialist who is a professor of English at the University of Wisconsin. She owes a ton of money in student loans and never makes any payments. They blow the money she makes and the money he makes, taking trips and vacations. She also wants to leave the country because they are "oppressed" but I'm guessing it's to escape the mountain of debt she has built up over the last 30 years.

He's my brother and I love him, but nothing would please me more than to see the 2 of them leave this wonderful country and find out that they had it really good here. When they take their "what has the government done for me lately" to another country, they're going to find out the grass isn't so green in Europe. Like halfabo alluded to... they'll end up living like rats if they don't change their ways.

But the point in all of this is I know first hand that our government provides PLENTY for people who are simply lazy and not truly needy. This "oppressed" bs just doesn't hold water, aquarian. And the lavish--by worldly standards--amenities our government hands out aren't even appreciated by some, maybe most people. The Churches are present in every city and help the truly needy. The government assists the truly needy as well. And the government also obviously helps the lazy.

The only people in our Capitalist country that have any reason to be poor and homeless, are the insane who bounce around from jail cells to state mental health facilities, until they get booted out on the streets. The people in that predicament are generally not mentally capable of taking care of themselves but too poor to pay anyone to do it for them. It's a terrible, endless loop that the homeless/mentally ill people go through but unless someone is in that group, they are more than taken care of--if they choose to be.

And lastly, again, I know firsthand through my brother. There are actually people who are capable of working but simply choose not to. They would rather live a substandard lifestyle. It is their choice and they are free to make that choice.

Capitalism and/or religion is not the root cause of anyone's problems, Aquarian. And I think you know that.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

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