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Quick question regarding the Cosmological argument
May 8, 2011
3:17 am
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at1with0
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....l_argument

A version of the cosmological argument could be stated as follows:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

According to the argument, the existence of the Universe requires an explanation, and the creation of the Universe by a First Cause, generally assumed to be God, is that explanation.

My question is regarding #3.
Why not??

"it is easy to grow crazy"

May 8, 2011
5:33 am
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at1with0
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In other words, it seems like begging the question.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

May 8, 2011
7:48 am
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bionic
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I think everything always is , and was and will be
I think needing a..no..wait.. ASSUMING a beginning (like how I did that?)is smallish, linear thinking
nothingness exists in theory only, I believe

it seems as if we use a zero..the way states, countries, regiones use a border

Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams

May 8, 2011
7:57 am
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at1with0
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Hmm...interesting.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

May 8, 2011
10:44 pm
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gudskepteacal
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"at1with0" wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....l_argument

A version of the cosmological argument could be stated as follows:

1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
2. A causal loop cannot exist.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

According to the argument, the existence of the Universe requires an explanation, and the creation of the Universe by a First Cause, generally assumed to be God, is that explanation.

My question is regarding #3.
Why not??

IMHO with this version of the cosmonlogical argument, regarding statement #2, causal loops pop into and out of existance frequently through time, much as eddies and swirls would in a fast moving river. The existance of any species of living creature might be considered a causal loop. Any repeating causal chain might be considered a causal loop.

Regarding statement #3; I believe, in the space-time continuum, time itself becomes the causal chain.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

May 8, 2011
10:51 pm
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at1with0
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Then you could translate the question into this: does time have a beginning?
I think it would be hard to know for sure, having apparently existed for a finite duration, and not witnessing the beginning of time. Then again, we can't always be a witness but we might be able to witness evidence of finite/infinite time much like how we can't witness wind directly but we can witness the effects of wind.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

May 8, 2011
11:21 pm
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gudskepteacal
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IMHO time having a beginning does not eliminate the possibility of it being infinite. If one begins at 0 and starts counting with natural, whole numbers, where is the end?

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

May 8, 2011
11:30 pm
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at1with0
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A beginning would suggest a 1st cause.

An unmoved mover.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

May 9, 2011
5:33 am
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DIss0n80r
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"bionic" wrote: I think everything always is , and was and will be
I think needing a..no..wait.. ASSUMING a beginning (like how I did that?)is smallish, linear thinking
nothingness exists in theory only, I believe

it seems as if we use a zero..the way states, countries, regiones use a border

🙂

"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

May 9, 2011
5:36 am
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DIss0n80r
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"at1with0" wrote: A beginning would suggest a 1st cause.

An unmoved mover.

Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

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