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Question on Biblical Quote....
September 22, 2010
8:10 pm
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Aquarian
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Let's see if the devoted Faithful here can answer an interpretation question...

What does the following Ecclesiastes passage mean to you?

For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts, even one thing befalleth them: As the one dieth, so dieth the other. Yes, they have all one breath. So that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast- for all is vanity"

Ecclesiastes 3:19

The Few assume to be the deputies, but they are often only the despoilers of the Many.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

September 22, 2010
8:28 pm
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greeney2
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Did you actually look this up in the Bible and read Ecclesiastes? Its very easy to read the Chapter 3, to understand what 3:19 refers to. REading all of Ecclesiastes would not be that long either. You will also find Ecclesiasties 3 contains something you have herd in your lifetime before, but never knew where it came from, in the first words of it.

This was the point I tried to raise in the contradictions post. You can not take a single passage and decifer it, without the full understanding of what was written, that it pretains to. You can not take a few word separted by 500 pages, from differnet Books of the Bible, and call it a contradiction.

I'm sure you are taking this someplace, and the way you put the question to

Let's see if the devoted Faithful here can answer an interpretation question

was a little condesending. REading is believing, so why don;t you read at least read chapter 3 and give what you think it is meaning. That would be the first step for you to learn what it means. Tell us what you think it means after reading the entire Chapter 3 it came from, then we can discuss it.

September 22, 2010
8:51 pm
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Aquarian
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It wasn't meant to be condescending. I actually thought I was being polite in addressing the Faithful with a capital world and including the adjective "devoted". //Sigh.

I took a class, a "Religion, Life, and Vegetarianism" class which particularly examined this quote. We discussed how a certain group of Christians, the Seventh Day Adventists, eschew meat and even emphasize them in their congregations. We also discussed how vegetarianism played a part in a spiritual respect for life for millenia (s). However, as religions began to "spring", the youngest of the monotheistic (Islam), is not a strong emphasizer of vegetarianism. Christianity offers a bit more evidence for a meatless way of life, buyt Hinduism, Janism, Buddhism, Bahai'-Faith, etc. do emphasize and even advocate vegetarianism as a spiritual component to attaining "transcendence", since eschewing meat would mean that the individual has recognized the cruelty of modern day factory farming/slaughterhouses and all their machinations and willingly refuse not to absorb the "low/negative" energies of an animal that was tortured before consumption. I don't know, I just thought it is pretty interesting to bring this up.

Here's some commentary by Michael Shaw; someone who coined the term: "Vegetarian Theology"-

A few days back people were discussing Ecclesiastes 3:19 and I would like to offer my view on it for those who have never seen it before. I will not go into an argument over whether souls exist in either humans or animals. I simply state my interpretation on this passage based on my beliefs and it is not meant to convert anyone. (This is only my opinion, please do not be offended if I present it emphatically.)

"Animals Have Souls & Spirits" According to the Book of Genesis chapter 1 verse 20 & verse 30, animals have souls (nephesh), and according to Eccles. 3:19, animals also have spirits (ruach). Also, if read in its entirety, the Eccles. passage makes it quite clear that there is no difference between the kind of spirit found in man and those found within animals, for it states: "They all have the same spirit, and man has no advantage over the beast." Because the true teachings of scripture point to animals having Souls and Spirits, there can be no doubt that Jesus would have been a vegetarian and that all subsequent Christians should be also; for if an animal has a soul, then it would be just as much a sin to kill an animal as it would be to kill a man. This is not just my opinion, but also God's, for God the Father says, "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man" Isaiah 66:3.

The love of God extends to all His creatures and not just to humans. The Psalmist in chapter 36 verse 6 exclaims; "Man and Beast thou savest, O Lord." In fact, God said to Noah, "Behold, I will establish my covenant with you and your descendants after you, and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark."

"More on Animals Spirits" Regarding Animal Spirits, let us look at the passage found in Ecclesiastes 3:19 a little closer. The King James Version renders this passage as follows... "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one "breath"; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." The word in question here is "breath" which I have stressed. The original Hebrew word here is Ruach and according to "Strong's Complete Dictionary of Bible Words", Ruach or Ruwach as they spell it, is used to represent Spirit, "but only of a rational being". in other cases, Strong's tells us, the word Ruach is rendered breath. However, as I am about to show you, Ruach should also be rendered Spirit in verse 19.

When we read further into Ecclesiastes we will see that in fact this entire passage has been referring to the spirit and not the breath; for in Ecclesiastes 3:21 the author asks... " Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" (NIV) The KJV and the NIV both translate Ruach correctly here as spirit, since they had no other choice. If they had said breath it would not have made any sense. However, since this passage is directly related to the previous one in verse 19, there can be no doubt that Ruach should have been rendered spirit in verse 19 and not breath.

The only reason apparent for the translators to choose breath over spirit in verse 19 is an attempt (by Christian Scholars) to fool the reader and themselves into not acknowledging that animals have spirits. The feeble attempts by translators are revealed for what they are. Yet, when faced with such statements of truth, some Bible publishers actually make attempts to discredit the entire passage in question.

Example: This very passage in Ecclesiastes 3:19 states that since man and animals have the same spirit, then man has no preeminence over animals, yet the publishers of the Amplified Bible refuse to accept this and put the following foot note in their bibles...

This is their Foot note:

(f) Does the Bible really teach that a man has no preeminence over a beast"? No! The Bible only records that the book of Ecclesiastes says it. Then why is this book in the Bible? Can it possibly be called inspired by God when it makes such "under the sun" pronouncements, some only partially true, others entirely false?..." (Bottom of page 738 The Amplified Bible 1987 paperback version, Zondervan Publishing House)

Friends, you can see for yourself that there is more than a simple attempt here, by the publishers of this Bible, to get around a truth that God has revealed. How sad these people can not accept what God says.

http://www.all-creatures.org/discuss/sv ... -21ms.html

The Few assume to be the deputies, but they are often only the despoilers of the Many.
Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

September 23, 2010
7:39 pm
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greeney2
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Like I said to start with Aquarian, I;ll ask you and everyone who wants to participate in this thread, and I believe its a very good one, to read the parts it comes from. First, everyone read all of Genesis, up until the end of the 6th day. Also read all of Ecclesiastes 3 next. They are both only a page to read not real long.

You will find great evidence in Genesis, that God told us to be vegetarians, but as far as giving animals a soul, like he gave man, that is a differnet subject. I guess we also have to define the difference between a soul and a spirit. This is all a good example how you can not just take a short passage out of something and think it says something other than from what it is written. The subjects are much deeper than that, and "the list" of contradictions mean nothing without, each being studied and discussed.

I think you bring an excellent subject with this Aquarian. Lets take it a step further, and all read it and discuss what it all means. I thinks also if you feel its a good Biblical reason for you to be a vegetarian, thats also a good thing, nothing wrong with that. I;m not sure it all states all that for that reason, I tend to think Ecclesiastes 3 is referring to something completly differnet.

I think a few questions that can come from the Geneisis referrals is if God made man know what sin was as they ate the apple, why didn;t he tell the animals the same thing about what they ate. God told man he gave them all the seeds and fruits, but told the animals they have all the grass. Not sure what he told the fish, or if it says. He gave man a different kind of command and different ability, to know right from wrong. Somewhere man stayed with the apple, but where did the animals stray from God's command? Why and when did animals become meat eating, and in many cases cannibalistic, eating their own? Also in the very first parts of Ecclesiastes 3 you will find passages a time for this, a time for that, etc. It also states a time to Kill, and time for War, and a time for Peace. Thats the familiar part we have all herd but not knowing from where. If Aquarian, you deduct Ecclesiastes 3 tells you be a vegetarian, how do you explain Ecclesiastes 3 stating there is a time for war, and a to kill?

I ask that you read the entire things so we can really discuss these and how it relates or not to what your class taught. Just one question, did anyplace in your class, did you all open Bibles and read these this entirely, or was it just the verses presented, with no consideration of the entire chapters meaning?

September 25, 2010
3:46 am
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greeney2
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I guess that idea went over like a lead ballon. I guess the thought of actually reading something from the Bible, in order to discuss it, is too much to do. Everyone over on the contradictions list also would not read a single one of them.

September 25, 2010
4:30 am
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frrostedman
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The meaning behind the verse to me is: Because of sin, death and evile was introduced into the world--affecting and corrupting all living beings. Neither man, nor beast, can escape death; and in that respect, man has no advantage over beast nor beast over man. We are all going to die and it is inescapable.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

September 25, 2010
4:31 am
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frrostedman
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We also have to remember that Solomon was the most wise man ever to live. So I am sure that many of his revelations were so deep, they are really hard for the layperson to fully comprehend.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

September 25, 2010
5:54 pm
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greeney2
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When I said nobody would read it, I ment of those who wish to use passages out of context to mock the Bible, like from the list of contradictions. Aquarian at least said this is what they learned in a vegetarian class, which is fine. I only asked that he actually read it and see what the entire chapter in question, was referring to. They deducted the passage had something to do with not eating meat, and I do not equate that at all. If anything, the Genesis passages give that implication, but the animals were not given a command. similar to man to "Not eat of the Apple tree". God clearly did not intend for the Animals to have the ability to decern right from wrong, or understand the concept of sin, or disobeying. How do you explain how animals became meat eaters, when God only gave them the grass?

What is clear is that, when your read an entire chapter, you learn what the intended meaning of a single line verse may be. In this case, it was pretaining to Man not being able to escape death, and no better than beasts that we both die, that we both all return to dust. This Chapter is a good example that studying just a small thing like this, presents all kinds of questions, to learn from. I at least can not fault the vegetarian class, becasue they at least in some way studyied the Bible to deduct the vegetarian practice.

Anyone can find opposing single phrases in just about anything and like a cheap list like EH presented. They clearly have no interrest in actually reading or studying it at all, proven by the refusal of all of them to read it. I don't think this is the case with Aquarians class however, but I do think he should read them, and he honest if the entire chapter gives him that same vegetarian message.

September 25, 2010
7:47 pm
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sandra
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"Aquarian" wrote: Let's see if the devoted Faithful here can answer an interpretation question...

What does the following Ecclesiastes passage mean to you?

For that which befalleth the sons of men, befalleth beasts, even one thing befalleth them: As the one dieth, so dieth the other. Yes, they have all one breath. So that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast- for all is vanity"

Ecclesiastes 3:19

This is actually one of the more straight forward passages. What we do to the circle of life we do unto ourselves.

Matthew 10-15

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[a] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

15Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."

16"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. 17"Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

What is explained in this is that it is always what is in the heart that we should seek to make clean and be clean in what we do.

Do I think being a Vegetarian is a good Idea, sure.
Meats are denser like, harder to digest, weighs the body down more, etc
Infact being a Catholic I don't know how many times I have caught myself
eating meat on good fridays.... 😕

Does eating meat make someone unclean- No I do not believe that.

Do these people that out of their hearts slaughter mass amounts of animals
for greed make them unclean, I suppose so.

There is mean to be a balance in these things with giving to the circle and taking
from the circle. Look what happened to the buffalo.

Do I equate killing a chicken to a Man, NO.
It is not out of the same place in a mans heart that these are done.

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

September 25, 2010
7:52 pm
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greeney2
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Sandra, how do you relate the meaning of Ecclesiastes 3:19 to the class Aquarian had, and what you think Ecclesiastes 3 completly is talking about? Is it about a vegetarian message, not killing or eating animals, or is it about the death of man and man returning to dust, just like the animals?

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