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Interesting sidelight about 501 c 3 tax status ..
October 31, 2014
6:57 pm
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Coming out of the Houston Mayor's fiasco concerning churches ...at least one writer has gotten it correct though I don't think they sufficiently explained it.

The 501 c 3 tax status is a manner of getting churches to file for corporate regulated status under the guise of tax exemption.

With this 501 c 3 status this means that the church is now a corporation of the state...a creature created by the state...and therefore subject to state control and regulation. This is never explained to the public ..it is fastidiously avoided in conversations and reports from government and controlled parasitic media. They all prefer the public to be ignorant of these goings on.

This means that there is no separation of church and state if government can now control and regulate these churches through this tax exempt status..which is a cover for other happenings.

This is what is not told to the public by our leadership..our school system nor our parasitic phony media. It should be. The public should not be ignorant of these goings on. The public should be informed of what this means.

The author in this article does not go sufficiently far in explaining why this is so about 501 c 3 status.

Many a minister has found themselves and their church under heavy handed government scrutiny/regulation/control when they have taught or preached something the government did not like. This means that a preacher cannot teach and preach the Whole Council of God...if it displeases someone in the government.

Or put another way..after GFW Hegel..."The state is god."

The public should be informed. I appreciated this article..but the author does not go into sufficient depth as to why...this is so.
But it is obvious to me this author is on to something.

I have been stating several times since coming to The Black Vault...that Churches should be tax immune and not tax exempt...that there is no separation of church and state under 501 c 3 tax exempt status.

Churches should be tax immune..not tax exempt. Churches should never have a tax exempt 501 c 3 tax number....ever.

I know of several churches who do not have this tax number and are not filed as state corporations. Praise God!!
They do not give out chits/receipts to their members for donations...for their taxes.

Here is the link......

http://rebelpundit.com/houston-mayors-a ... ax-status/

Thanks,
Orangetom

October 31, 2014
9:13 pm
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greeney2
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So the churches you personally know of that do not have a 501C filing, they all file regular income tax statements every year and pay taxes on their income? They are entitled to show deductions or expenses just like any other business, and income has to be declared. Anything less would be income tax evasion.

How do you purpose a system that assures all the other taxpayers, churches are not cheating the system, if total immunity means never even filing income tax?

November 1, 2014
8:18 pm
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"greeney2" wrote: So the churches you personally know of that do not have a 501C filing, they all file regular income tax statements every year and pay taxes on their income? They are entitled to show deductions or expenses just like any other business, and income has to be declared. Anything less would be income tax evasion.

How do you purpose a system that assures all the other taxpayers, churches are not cheating the system, if total immunity means never even filing income tax?

I'm sorry Greeny2..but this post was intended as Separation of Church and State and the lack thereof with the 501 c 3 tax status.

Somehow you needs feel the necessity to make it about Income Tax. But it is interesting.

Tax immunity means no filing..no records...none of the governments business. This is true separation..not this joke which is going on today..not only on the part of the Houston Government but the Federal Government as well.,

The news of recent is illustrative of substantial abuse of the Tax Code by government for the purposes of persecution and intimidation..of individuals as well as organizations...ie...politics. Exactly what the Houston Government is clearly doing in the article.

Now..with that background ...you are trying to make a moral and ethical point about Income Taxes?? What could that possibly be???

Once again..you cannot possibly have separation of church and state..when the churches have signed up for a tax number which states that the churches are a creature of the state...a state corporation..created by the state.

On the other end you cannot possibly have separation of church and state when a church is filed as a state corporation and receives a tax subsidy or price support on the public purse. This knowledge makes a joke out of both government and the churches.

No church should ever have a tax number if they are to be separate and able to teach and preach the Whole Council of God. The point here is to be able to teach and preach the Whole Council of God. It is not to be a business.

This is made quite clear by what happened in Houston..as the government used its taxing power and regulation to go after these churches for their preaching and teaching. This is what one expects in Communist Russia or Communist China..not here in the USA.

Once again..what is the moral and ethical point you are making about Income Tax???? Somehow I do not believe government is the correct institution to be controlling and regulating the churches. For they have themselves shown the clear tendency in government to return back to "Absolute Power/Divine Right of Kings" and use any abuse or method to achieve this goal...and in particularly this current government.

Thanks,
Orangetom

November 2, 2014
2:14 am
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greeney2
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How many times do we play the same broken record OT where you side step the questions and go off on the same rant? Again 501C laws are not only for churches, they are for all kinds of Non-profit organizations, and there are laws they must adhere to to have the exemptions, you know for churches it is to NOT engage in political issues. Actually no non-profit is allowed to do those things. You are under no different rules in your church than a Rock, Gem and Mineral society I belong to.

Your church is not required to be a 501C status, it is an option for tax exemption, but the option has rules and criteria. You are free to have your church not become a Non-profit organization. However you are not free in this country to make income and not declare it on income tax. This is why I asked you, and you side stepped the question DO THOSE YOU KNOW WHO ARE NOT 501C FILE AND PAY INCOME TAX? Not doing that is not just a moral and ethical issue, it is a crime. Income tax evasion is a crime, and churches are just as likely to do this as gangsters. Every church has income and expenses, pay employees, or pay the Pastor, that requires a business tax filing.

You are one of the smartest posters on the board, but your idea of tax immunity would be ridiculous, because everyone could just say, " I'm a church, I do not have to pay taxes, and you can't make me tell you about my income" Everyone would be immune.

November 2, 2014
3:50 am
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I agree 1000 percent. There is a difference between exempt and immune. A tax number gives the government an "in".

I don't think greeney was making a moral and ethical statement about income taxes. I think it was more of a "you do or you don't" pay taxes under current law. In my opinion, the current law is inconsistent with the idea of total freedom OF religion. It leaves the door open to be a snare.

November 2, 2014
5:11 pm
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greeney2
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I did not follow all the news about the texas mayor demanding to see the pastors sermons, but that was clearly something that was a clear attack on Constitutional rights of many kinds. I believe the demand was withdrawn, but not before the damage was done. I would never condone that whatsoever, so the Pastors either should have refused, taken legal action, or simply returned blank sheets of paper and told them, I preach out of my head on Sunday, I never have a written script.

I'm not sure if this was a government enforcing violations of 501C laws where they thought certain political issues were a violation, by including current issues in sermons. That is not the kind of activism 501C has rules against. Apparently with all the laws of gay rights and gay issues in every state, you may be seeing the governments, state or federal attempting to turn sermons about temptation and sins, into politic issues.

IT is very clear, churches like the Westborrow Baptists are doing the kind of violations of 501C laws. A sermon talking about Sodom and Gomorrah is clearly not the same thing. Again the Mayors demands were religious violations, but a entire host of Free speech and expressions not just a religion attack.

I get OTs concerns, but feel they are the extreme, and do not feel anyone's religion is oppressed due to some tax laws. I do feel immunity of any sort would just open up the floodgates of abuse. Diplomatic immunity allows just about any crime and those with diplomatic immunity literally have gotten away with murder.

I believe in freedom of religion but I also believe a society has laws and rules, and even religions should be accountable for income and expenses. Lets face it every church has a business end to its existence. When you read and hear about the extreme abuses in it financially, IMHO having zero accountability, would never work.

November 2, 2014
5:55 pm
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Greeny2,

Again 501C laws are not only for churches, they are for all kinds of Non-profit organizations, and there are laws they must adhere to to have the exemptions, you know for churches it is to NOT engage in political issues.

Agree ...501 c 3 status is not for churches only. It is however a corporate status granted by the government. This is not separation of church and state. It is a government Church...and you are back to Divine Right of Kings.

Which is exactly why I have for so long stated that a church should never have a 501 c 3 tax number. Thus they can teach and preach the Whole Council of God...not the neo gods.

The problem with your argument, for those who can still think, is that anything and everything today is considered political speech in a PC world. And I mean everything.

As Long as one is living a television and movie life and is being swayed to and fro by every changing wind..everything is alright. But if you think for yourself ...or from the Word..and so express...now you are political.

Do you see a problem here Greeny2.

I was told by a minister over 20 years ago that the Federal Government was putting into offices across the land ..people who were not at all friendly to the Church. At first I gave it little thought. But through the years he has turned out to be exactly correct...and waxing worse and worse.

My understanding is that with the last two elections we have installed concealed atheists into office...under the guise of hope and change. It is becoming obvious that something is not right..not the product advertised. And they are willing to use and misuse the offices of government to hold sway over the churches...and ministers...even over any type of opposition and free speech.

And remember today...anything and everything is considered political speech and waxing worse and worse and under more government control.

In answer to your question...I do know that these churches do not have a 501c tax number. How the church handles it's taxes I do not know..but I do know that they are not under 501c rules and controls...which is fine by me. They also teach and preach the Whole Council of God. They are not limited as to their free speech.

It is interesting to me that under a Constitution ...amended by this tax regulation...free speech would be limited under threat of tax status change or modification. Very interesting.

I do know that Pat Robertson dropped the money issue on which he had been teaching and preaching on his program so many years ago. He cannot teach and preach the Whole Council of God. Money is to political. A system of just weights and measures is to political about which to teach and preach.

You are one of the smartest posters on the board, but your idea of tax immunity would be ridiculous, because everyone could just say, " I'm a church, I do not have to pay taxes, and you can't make me tell you about my income" Everyone would be immune.

LOL LOL LOL...I remember this..under the current 501 c 3 rules and regulations. Do you remember when in the backs of many magazines they would sell ministers licenses?? I do ..they were all over the place

You don't see this much anymore. Probably because so many were trying to do exactly what you describe under the tax code.

By the way ..while I am at it..think about that. A ministers license. Where and when does it state in the Word that a minister or preacher must needs be licensed???

Nonetheless..you are arguing for taxes..I am arguing for separation of church and state.

I don't care anything about the taxes at all..because it is become obvious to some of us that taxes are now regulation and control..not for the purposes of paying for government.. but for killing off competition of all kinds in the marketplace. Even the marketplace of ideas and thinking. This is not a sign or symptom of a free marketplace...but a rigged marketplace.

A government which can borrow all the monies it wants or print it..is not worried about our tax monies..but about our ability to " compete " with government in the marketplace for goods and services. The taxes can only be for the purpose of limiting our ability to consume for what we labor....and ceding this to government excess...not to those who produce and take RISKS in their labors. We are economic " competitors" against government largess...buying up of votes and influence. And now..even "competition" of thought and speech.
All current taxes do is hide this corruption of everything in which people believe as the political winds change..and necessitate more taxes and change.

This will not differ if Republicans are voted into office on Tuesday. Not at all. Nothing will change. Only appear to change. Not for the people and not for the Churches. It will only wax worse...and worse.

You are making a point here for tax chaos Greeny2. I am saying that under the current system and waxing worse..there is going to be tax chaos...there already is tax chaos under the form of lack of freedom of speech and religion,.

Thanks,
Orangetom

November 2, 2014
6:05 pm
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"qmark" wrote: I agree 1000 percent. There is a difference between exempt and immune. A tax number gives the government an "in".

I don't think greeney was making a moral and ethical statement about income taxes. I think it was more of a "you do or you don't" pay taxes under current law. In my opinion, the current law is inconsistent with the idea of total freedom OF religion. It leaves the door open to be a snare.

I understand what Greeny 2 was stating. I was concerned about Separation of Church and State. I do not agree with the concept or practice of a church being subsidized or price supported by the income tax system. This is not separation.

In like manner I do not approve of a church which cannot teach and preach the Whole Council of God because someone in government does not like the sermon. It goes against Separation of Church and State as well as Amendment 1.

There is a long and historical Truth to the reason for Separation of Church and State. And it is seldom taught for the Truth and history of which it is.

I am concerned with Separation of Church and State..and the ability of a church to teach and preach The Whole council of God and not about taxes.

Thanks,
Orangetom

November 3, 2014
5:41 pm
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The laws do not have a thing to do with a Sunday sermon or your idea of teaching what ever they deem. The laws are clear about activism, lobbying, and substantially engaging political campaigning. It does not say you may not do any of these things, there is a expenditure ceiling, so a certain level is even allowable. You are greatly confusing and misinterpreting the law.

Lastly, and I am done with this subject now , you did not get my meaning whatsoever, I was not talking about taxing, I was talking about crime and abuse, associated with no controls with a system of immunity. They should be exempt, but every other citizen has the right to know they are legitimate. That the business and money end of any church or religion should have some system of verification of funds that are legitimate expense for exemptions. They are an entity in this country that takes in a lot of money, and spends a lot of money, and have a potential for abuse of funds. I think you would find Jim and Tammy Baker were preaching the whole council of God, and using it for a mission of lavish lifestyle and gross misuse of funds, bilking people out of life savings. Immunity would be ludicrous! You mentioned China and Russia to compare to--you really should rethink that statement.

Proper Political Behavior: (from link below)
In order to qualify as a 501(c)(3) organization, the organization must refrain from substantially engaging in political activity such as lobbying. To assess whether an organization is "substantially" involved in influencing legislation, IRC Section 501(h)(1) provides that the organization's lobbying expenditures be compared to the lobbying expenditure ceiling, under IRC Section 4911, for that organization. Expenditures exceeding the ceiling can make an organization ineligible for 501(c)(3) status.

Finally, in order to qualify as a 501(c)(3) organization, the organization must completely refrain from political campaigning. The organization may not participate in any type of propaganda aimed at electing a candidate to public office. However, political acts which are non-partisan, such as voter education programs, will not endanger an organization's 501(c)(3) status.

Read more : http://www.ehow.com/list_6743296_requir ... 01c3_.html

November 3, 2014
7:43 pm
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Greeny2,

I think by this quote here...you are referring to the abuses of the body politic as a devout, zealous, and religious institution??? Yes?? Do they not have a very very long history of abuses and skirting the law on this. Or are they exempt/immune??

They should be exempt, but every other citizen has the right to know they are legitimate. That the business and money end of any church or religion should have some system of verification of funds that are legitimate expense for exemptions. They are an entity in this country that takes in a lot of money, and spends a lot of money, and have a potential for abuse of funds.

Do you see a problem here..a double standard???

Just something to think about ..no cover charge.

By the way...with what happened in Houston ..it appears that many churches have had enough and are in rebellion..."Civil Disobedience ..as...I think it was Thoreau who wrote on this??

There are, to my surprise, some articles showing up on the web concerning this. Probably because it is election day tomorrow..but I have not seen nor remember anyone writing on such.

As to Jim and Tammy Baker...let the buyer beware. I never liked them even back then when they were on television. Nor do I like that fellow out of Lynchburd, Virginia, nor Swaggart. nor Pat Robertson...nor Joyce Meyers.

In short I am not impressed with television preaching. Nor most of that stuff on the radio and I listen to short wave preachers as well as on the local AM/FM bands. None of them particularly impress me.

By the way..while I am thinking about it ..were not Jim and Tammy under 501 c 3 status???

I believe this 501 c 3 status goes back to the time of Lyndon Johnson...and before. I could be wrong here but I believe it has been adjusted many times since its enacting.

Must make haste..will add more later when time constraints are not so binding.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

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