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God Is Imaginary: Examine Jesus' resurrection (Proof #15)
July 3, 2011
8:17 pm
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Jesus' resurrection after his death is the ultimate and defining proof of Jesus' divinity. Just about everyone knows the story, which is summarized in the Apostles' Creed. Jesus was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

There is only one way for Jesus to prove that he rose from the dead. He had to appear to people. Therefore, several different places in the Bible describe Jesus' appearances after his death:

Matthew chapter 28
Mark chapter 16
Luke chapter 24
John Chapter 20 and 21

1 Corinthians 15:3-6 provides a nice summary of those passages, as written by Paul:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

As you can see in this passage, Jesus appeared to hundreds of people a number of different times.

Being like Paul

When we look at these Bible passages, there is a question that comes to mind -- why did Jesus stop making these appearances? Why isn't Jesus appearing today?

It really is odd. Obviously Paul benefitted from a personal meeting with the resurrected Christ. Because of the personal visit, Paul could see for himself the truth of the resurrection, and he could ask Jesus questions.

So... Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?

It is an important question for the following reasons:

We are told by the Bible that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people.

We therefore know that it is OK for Jesus to appear to people -- it does not take away their free will, for example.

We know that it would be easy for Jesus to appear to everyone all through history, since Jesus is all-powerful and timeless.

We know that, if Jesus did reappear to everyone, it would be incredibly helpful. We could all know, personally, that Jesus is resurrected and that Jesus is God. If Paul (and all the other people in the Bible) needed a personal visit to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why not you and me?

Yet, we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years.

In other words, there is nothing stopping Jesus from appearing to you, and several good reasons for him to appear.

Praying to Jesus

What if we pray to Jesus like this: "Dear Jesus, please appear to us, as you did to Paul and the 500 brethren, so that we can see the evidence of your resurrection. In your name we pray, amen." Here is what Jesus has promised us in the Bible:

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

In John chapter 14:14:

Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is actually in our midst. So he is right here already, supposedly. Yet when we pray to him to physically materialize, nothing ever happens.
Isn't it odd that Nothing happens, given the fact that Jesus promises us that something will happen? Isn't it odd that nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus is right here with us already, and materialization would be trivial for him?

We have created an unambiguous situation where coincidence cannot "answer" the prayer. The only way for this prayer to be answered is for Jesus to actually, unambiguously, materialize.

As you think about this, you will realize that Paul's story in the Bible must be false. Simply look at Paul's story like any judge in a courtroom would. What Paul's story in 1 Cor 15 is suggesting is entirely unprecedented - a man dead three days with mortal wounds came back to life. Yet:

There is absolutely no evidence that the story is true,

There are many alternative explanations for what Paul is saying. Paul could be fabricating the story, Paul could have hallucinated or dreamed the meeting, Paul could have seen an imposter, etc.

In addition, no one is seeing Jesus today, even though it would be trivial and obvious for Jesus to appear to people today just like he did with Paul.

Given this evidence, rational people would automatically conclude that Paul's story in the Bible is untrue. There is zero evidence to support Paul's story, zero reason to believe it, a motive to lie and plenty of alternative explanations. There is also the fact that much of the rest of the Bible contains provably false stories. Plus the fact that it would be trivial for Jesus to provide the evidence that Paul needs to confirm his story by reappearing on earth. Add to that the fact that Jesus has promised to answer our prayers but refuses to materialize when we pray to him. The only thing to do is to reject Paul's story. Every bit of evidence points to the fact that the resurrection story is a myth, nothing more.

Given that the resurrection story is clearly a myth, it means that Jesus (if he existed at all) was a normal human being, not God. The resurrection clearly did not happen.

And with that, we can see that God himself is imaginary. If God actually did exist and was playing any role whatsoever on this planet, there is no way that he would allow an imposter like Jesus.

Understanding the Rationalizations:

Many believers will try to rationalize Jesus' absence by pointing to his famous statement in the Bible, "Happy are those who have not seen yet still believe."

If you think about this statement, what you realize is that it creates the perfect cover for a scam. Let's say you are Jesus, you are a normal human being, you realize that you are going to die and you want to cover for this fact. Here is what you would say: "Happy are those who have not seen yet still believe." What you are saying is, "I exist, and the way I am going to show you that I exist is by not showing that I exist." For every other object in the universe, the way that we know it exists is because the object provides evidence of its existence. If there is no evidence for an object's existence, we call it imaginary (e.g. Leprechauns). But with Jesus, the lack of evidence is turned into evidence. Quite clever, but obviously a scam.

You simply need to look at the evidence and accept what it is telling you. If the resurrection were true, then Jesus would be answering prayers as he promises in the Bible. He would also appear when people pray to see him. The fact is, as we saw here and here, there is definitive evidence that prayer accomplishes nothing. It is also obvious that Jesus is not appearing on earth today.

While we are on the topic of the resurrection, have you ever thought about how odd the whole crucifixion story is? Imagine the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven. He looks down onto earth and says to himself:

Those evil humans down on earth. I hate what they are doing. All this sin...

Since I am all-knowing I know exactly what the humans are doing and I understand exactly why they commit each sin. Since I created the humans in my own image and personally programmed human nature into their brains, I am the direct author of all of this sin. The instant I created them I knew exactly what would happen with every single human being right down to the nanosecond level for all eternity. If I didn't like how it was going to turn out, I could have simply changed them when I created them. And since I am perfect, I know exactly what I am doing. But ignore all that. I hate all these people doing exactly what I perfectly designed them to do and knew they would do from the moment I created them...

So here's what I am going to do. I will artificially inseminate a virgin. She will give birth to an incarnated version of me. The humans will eventually crucify and kill the incarnated me. That will, finally, make me happy. Yes, sending mself down and having the humans crucify me -- that will satisfy me. I feel much better now.

It makes no sense, does it? Why would an all-knowing being need to have humans kill himself (Jesus is God, after all) to make himself happy? Especially since it is a perfect God who set the whole thing in motion exactly the way he wanted it? The story of the crucifixion is absurd from top to bottom if you actually stop to think about it. By combining the crucifixion story with the resurrection story, you can see the truth -- "God" is a mythological creature just like every other human god. The entire religious domain is make believe.

http://godisimaginary.com/i15.htm

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what science, evidence, and logic causes me to believe.

July 4, 2011
11:55 am
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bionic
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yet..we still talk about Jesus today.
Debate about him, like here, now.
He made a heck of an impression with all that drama, no?

Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams

July 5, 2011
1:52 am
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All we ever get from E-H is copy/paste crap from other websites. The only actual, personal contributions he has made to this forum are insults and foul language.

If anything, E-H stands as a perfect example of what not to be.

Score one for believers.

Oh, and before we get the inevitable, "Nothing to add to the subject? Just more insults? Typical," response... I'll start contributing and exchanging when you do, E-H. The onus is on you. Contribute your own thoughts and words.

Otherwise, to me you are nothing more than an atheist propaganda spam bot.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

July 5, 2011
3:43 am
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Consider the sourse ffrostedman! Where the information came from, is nothing new.

July 5, 2011
6:35 pm
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Jesus is the Greek name for the Hebrew Name Joshua
Christ is the Greek word mean anointed

Jesus Christ is Joshua the anointed one.

Josephus' writings documents John the Baptist, James the Just, and Jesus.
Most historical scholars can agree to the historicity of Jesus.

Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in AD 93. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum.

In the Testimonium Flavianum, it is written:

About this time came Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is appropriate to call him a man. For he was a performer of paradoxical feats, a teacher of people who accept the unusual with pleasure, and he won over many of the Jews and also many Greeks.
He was the Christ. The Anointed one
When Pilate, upon the accusation of the first men amongst us, condemned him to be crucified, those who had formerly loved him did not cease to follow him, for he appeared to them on the third day, living again, as the divine prophets foretold, along with a myriad of other marvellous things concerning him. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.

The language is typically Josephan, which not only supports the hypothesis that Josephus did write something about Jesus, but also may aid in determining which parts of the passage are genuine. Most scholars have found at least some authentic words of Josephus in the passage, since some portions are written in his style.

Also Josephus calls James the brother of Jesus, who was also called Christ. ( The anointed one ) The majority of scholars consider this shorter reference to Jesus to be substantially authentic. Hegesippus, in a work produced around 165-175, also has an account of James that has irreconcilable conflicts with Josephus regarding the death of James the Just .
The main reason to believe Josephus did originally mention Jesus is the fact that the majority of scholars accept the authenticity of his passage on Jesus' brother James.

The Babylonian Talmud in a few rare instances likely or possibly refers to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period (70–200 CE).

One important reference relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his disciples.
It includes this text:

It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and God said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.

These early possible references to Jesus have little historical information independent from the gospels, but they do seem to reflect the historical Jesus as a man who had disciples and was crucified during Passover.
They reflect hostility toward Jesus among the rabbis. The story of Jesus' trial asserts that Jesus was guilty of a capital crime, and defends the court against the early Christian criticism that Jesus' trial had been hasty.

Another aspect of this record is that it varies dramatically from the records in the gospels. Instead of twelve disciples, there are only five, and only one name, that of Matai, even resembles those of the disciples in the gospels. Other differences include hanging instead of crucifixion, a call for witnesses to his defense and the disciples all being sentenced to death after their own trials.

The Acts of Pilate is purportedly an official document from Pilate reporting events in Judea to the Emperor Tiberius .

It was mentioned by Justin Martyr, in his First Apology to Antoninus Pius, Marcus Aurelius, and Lucius Verus. He said that his claims concerning Jesus' crucifixion, and some miracles, could be verified by referencing the official record, the "Acts of Pontius Pilate".

Jesus is featured in Biblical manuscripts throughout the New Testament such as the Pauline Epistles, the Gospels, and the book of Acts.

Paul of Tarsus was a 1st century Hellenistic Jew, who attempted to suppress the new Christian sect, but experienced a conversion to faith in Jesus around c 37. Paul dictated letters to various churches and individuals from c. 48–68.

For me there is an historical Jesus.

July 5, 2011
7:56 pm
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Yet, we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years.

Appearing visually and appearing spiritually are 2 different things. If 1000 people told you Jesus visually appeared to them today, you would not believe it. If 1000 people told you Jesus spiritally appeared to them today, alone in their kitchen, you would not believe it either.

July 5, 2011
9:29 pm
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Bioengineering and cloning back in Ezekiel times:
Possibility of Jesus either clone back to life

EZEKIEL 37:1-14 DRY BONES
Ezekiel was placed in a valley that was full of dry bones which were probably the bones of an army. He must have wondered what was going on and why the Lord had placed him there. Presumably he had no idea what was happening and what the Lord was going to say or do. The connection is something we see later in the passage:
Ezekiel 37:11(NIV)
11Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’
Ezekiel didn’t know this for the first two parts of his prophecy so when God said that to Ezekiel I can just picture him saying something like, “Ah! So that’s what this is all about!”
The land of Israel had been decimated and the people had been carted off into exile in Babylon. As far as they were concerned, that was the end of their nation. They felt as though their bones had dried up and they had been completely cut off from their land, their worship and their God and so had no hope at all.

But God heard the cries of the people. In his grace had not forgotten them or his covenant with them. He was about to act and this prophecy told the people about it and gave them hope. Ezekiel gave three prophecies.

EZEKIEL’S PROPHECY

It’s a bit hard to imagine what it must have been like for Ezekiel standing in the middle of all those bones, but at the very least it must have been discouraging and depressing. So what did he think and feel when God asked him whether or not the dry bones could live again?

Could these bodies be resurrected? Was there hope for these bones? The implication in the question is that, in the normal run of things, the answer was no, they can’t. I reckon Ezekiel should have been a politician because he very neatly sidestepped giving God a direct answer! He didn’t stick his neck out and say yes, because that would have been a pretty big thing.

Bleached and dry bones don’t normally come back to life. On the other hand he didn’t give a direct no either. He’d already seen God do some pretty amazing things and he would have known something of God’s actions within the history of Israel. So no would have been a bit risky too. So he covered both bases by throwing it back on God: you alone know.

God told Ezekiel to prophesy to the bones, which must have felt a bit strange in itself. But imagine his surprise when the bones started rattling, coming together. It must have been a cacophony of sound. Skeletons formed and then tendons, muscles and skin were added. But the problem was that even though they were now fully formed bodies, they had no breath in them. They had no Spirit. Presumably at this point they were fully formed bodies.
If Jesus was dead he was cloned back to life like in the past

July 5, 2011
10:25 pm
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bionic
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From bone marrow or some random dna from a hair sample or such?

Willie Wonka quotes..
What is this Wonka, some kind of funhouse?
Why? Are you having fun?
A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.
We are the music makers, we are the dreamers of dreams

July 6, 2011
5:43 am
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event_horizon
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Yep. Just like I figured...

"frrostedman" wrote: All we ever get from E-H is copy/paste crap from other websites.

False. After people make rebuttals to the opening post, I then try to have a discussion with them about their post.

"frrostedman" wrote: The only actual, personal contributions he has made to this forum are insults and foul language.

False. Anyone that's been here long enough knows otherwise.

And anyone reading the threads can see that I'm usually the one being attacked first. I'm defending myself. "Play with fire and you'll get burned." 😈

"frrostedman" wrote: If anything, E-H stands as a perfect example of what not to be.

And you're supposed to be some kind of role model? Laugh

"frrostedman" wrote: Score one for believers.

Who died and made you bookie and referee?

"frrostedman" wrote: Oh, and before we get the inevitable, "Nothing to add to the subject? Just more insults? Typical," response... I'll start contributing and exchanging when you do, E-H. The onus is on you. Contribute your own thoughts and words.

Otherwise, to me you are nothing more than an atheist propaganda spam bot.

Like I said before, it's not spam if it's truth. If you don't think there's any truth to the opening post, then make a rebuttal, or move along, sparky. You're all bark and no bite.

The truth is you really don't have a rebuttal to this excellent material. It's just too much for your feeble mind to handle.

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what science, evidence, and logic causes me to believe.

July 6, 2011
5:48 am
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"greeney2" wrote: Appearing visually and appearing spiritually are 2 different things.

There's nothing in the Bible that says Jesus appeared to anyone "spiritually" after the "Resurrection." Let's keep it to hard data shall we.

"greeney2" wrote: If 1000 people told you Jesus visually appeared to them today, you would not believe it.

Why can't Jesus simply appear to everyone? That would avoid so much ridicule towards Jesus and the Bible...no?

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what science, evidence, and logic causes me to believe.

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