God Is Imaginary: Examine Jesus' Miracles (Proof #14) | Religion Spirituality | Forum

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
God Is Imaginary: Examine Jesus' Miracles (Proof #14)
February 13, 2011
9:47 pm
Avatar
event_horizon
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1628
Member Since:
April 22, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If someone were to come to you today and say, "I am God!", what would you do? Yes, you would immediately ask for proof. Of course you would. And you would not want goofy proof. You would want real, solid, tangible proof.

No normal person, and I mean no one, would accept anything less than rock solid proof from a person who claims to be God.

Why should it be any different with Jesus? Jesus was a man who claims to be God. If he is God, then he ought to be able to prove it in a real, inimitable way. If he cannot prove it then, quite clearly, he is not God.

A Christian would say, "But Jesus HAS proven it! Just look at all of the miracles he did in the Bible! He healed the sick! He changed water into wine! That PROVES that Jesus is the Lord!" Does that make sense to you? Imagine that someone, today, were to come up to you and say, "I am God, and I will prove that I am God by healing the sick and turning water into wine!" What would you say? Be honest. You would not believe this person because:

1. Everyone has seen all sorts of "faith healers" who can "heal" the sick. And we all know that this sort of "healing" is quackery. If it were true, then we would not need doctors, hospitals or prescription medicines.

2. Turning water into wine... Doesn't that sound like something that a B-grade David-Copperfield-wannabe magician would do in a nightclub act? There are a dozen ways that you could stage things to make it look like water is turning into wine. There is no reason why a normal person would accept a magic trick as proof that someone is God.

3. Neither of these miracles can be scientifically tested today. Not one of Jesus' miracles left any tangible evidence for scientists to study.

It is as simple as that. If someone claimed to be God today, you would never believe it if the evidence consisted of faith healing and magic tricks. Never. Yet billions of people claim that Jesus' faith healing and magic tricks prove that he is God.

Let's imagine that Jesus truly is God. What might he have done to prove it? He could have started by taking one of his most famous quotes from the Bible and acting on it. In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says quite clearly:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

To prove that he is God, Jesus would have moved a mountain. Especially since it is so easy. And Jesus would have written something down to explain himself. Here's what the first page of Jesus' book might have looked like:

My name is Jesus, and I am God. I know there are a lot of people out there who will doubt that I am God, so let me start off by proving it to you. Take a look at Mount Sinai. Everyone knows that, until today, Mount Sinai stood near here. It is the mountain where God, my father, gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

Mount Sinai vanished this morning, and what was left in its place was a perfectly smooth, polished stone base measuring four miles square. Hundreds of years from now, people will find that Mount Sinai landed near a place that will be called Newark, New Jersey. When scientists dig into the mountain, they will find that the bottom of the mountain is also completely smooth and polished, and that the bottom of the mountain in New Jersey perfectly matches the polished plain nearby. Scientists will be able to align the mountain and the plain, looking at it rock crystal by rock crystal at a microscopic level. I have said many times that, if you have faith, you can move mountains. I moved Mount Sinai to show how easy it is, and to prove that I am God.

I know that that may not be enough, so let me offer a second proof. If you draw a circle, you know that there is distance across the circle. Let us call it the diameter of the circle. There is also a distance around the outside of the circle. Let us call it the circumference. If you divide the circumference by the diameter, you get another number. Let us call it Pi, and its first 6 digits are 3.14159. Pi is an irrational number. It is a number that is made up of an infinite number of non-repeating digits.

There will come a day when machines called computers will calculate billions of digits of Pi. If you calculate Pi out to the millionth trillionth digit, here is what you will find:

9823456451237823492278583495083498745....

Now, having proven that I am God to any rational being, through my documentable movement of a mountain and through my foreknowledge of Pi at the millionth trillionth position, here is what I want to say to the human race as your creator, and as the creator of the universe...

Wouldn't that be awesome and amazing? If we had such a book, and if Mount Sinai had actually moved, then there would be no questions about Jesus. We would all believe that he is God. How could we not? Imagine what such a book would say on the following pages. A book like that, I am sure, would leave all of us in awe.

Why would Jesus not do that? God, supposedly, has already written a book called the Bible. And God, supposedly, has already done all sorts of things according to that book. God, supposedly, parted the Red Sea, carved the Ten Commandments into stone, went to the trouble to incarnate himself, etc. So why not have Jesus write a book, and leave behind real, tangible evidence for all of us to see?

For any normal, rational person the reason is obvious -- God is imaginary. We would not believe that anyone today is God without concrete proof. Jesus doesn't get a pass because he lived 2,000 years ago. Jesus, if he existed at all, was a human being just like you and me. All of the stories in the Bible are just that -- stories.

Understanding the Rationalizations:

If you ask a religious person about Jesus' divinity, you may find yourself in a conversation like this:

Norm: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God?

Chris: He did! He performed many miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!

Norm: Why did he not prove that he is God in a way that is definitive and scientifically provable -- for example, by moving a mountain?

Chris: He could not do that! That would take away man's free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Norm: Why, then, did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Gospels?

Chris: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.

Norm: I thought that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.

Chris: No.

Norm: Isn't that what you just said?

Chris: No. What I just said is that Jesus' miracles prove that he was God.

Norm: So why didn't Jesus perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?

Chris: Because that would take away our free will.

Try having this conversation yourself with a Christian and you will find it to be a very odd discussion. The circular logic will make you dizzy:

Jesus had to perform miracles to prove his divinity, and that doesn't take away free will...

...But if Jesus performed miracles that we could see and scientifically verify, it would take away free will.

Any unbiased observer can see reality. The reason why Jesus did not perform concrete, verifiable miracles is because Jesus was a man like any other.

Here is another rationalization that believers will frequently use to try to explain Jesus' behavior. In the book "The Case for Faith," the author Lee Stroble interviews Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Dr. Kreeft says the following:

"Scripture describes God as a hidden God. You have to make the effort of faith to find him. There are clues you can follow. And if that weren't so, if there was something more or less than clues, it's difficult for me to understand how we could really be free to make a choice about him."

Clues? Hidden? According to the Bible God incarnated himself. He created an entire human being named Jesus. That is not a "clue" -- that is a huge, obvious piece of evidence. It is very hard to "hide" a 170-pound human being who is running around performing miracles on every street corner. Then you collect the stories of those miracles and publish them in a book. Where is the hiding in that?

There are examples of God's desire for publicity throughout the Bible. The best known is God's parting of the Red Sea in the book of Exodus, chapter 14:

Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.

That is impressive, and it is utterly obvious. Thousands of Israelites witnessed this event. There are many other events that are equally obvious: manna from heaven, the Ten Commandments carved onto stone tablets, the Passover massacre and so on. All of it is described in the Bible, which God wrote so that billions of people can read about these events and experience them vicariously today.

It is pretty hard to hide something that you do in front of thousands of people and then describe and publish in billions of books. Clearly God is not a hidden God.

But there is an even more impressive sign that we often forget. If God exists and God wrote the Bible, then rainbows are actually proof that God exists. God is not hiding at all. If you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this:

And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth..."

What could be more obvious than that? God left a sign for all future generations, according to the Bible. Clearly God does not want to hide.

There are also plenty of cases in the New Testament. For example, Matthew, Chapter 17:

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

These are not exactly the actions of a God in hiding. Apparently the free wills of Peter, James and John were not that important to God. And again it is published in the Bible so that billions of other people can read about it.

Or take this passage from the book of Matthew, Chapter 3:

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Again, not exactly a hidden God.

Or this passage from the book of Luke, Chapter 2:

And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."

Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

The free will of the shepherds was certainly tarnished a bit here.

In 1 Corinthians 15:6, Paul says,

Then he [Jesus, after the resurrection] appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time.

Those 500 people must have lost their free will. And John says:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25)

That's an awful lot of miracles -- so many that the world would not have room for all the books describing them. Presumably at least one person witnessed each miracle. Think of how many names fill just one phone book. Now imagine a whole world full of phone books. That's a lot of people. Weren't all of their free wills affected? How is God hiding if millions of people saw Jesus and the miracles he performed?

Clearly the notion that "God is hiding" is pure rationalization.

http://godisimaginary.com/i14.htm

I don't believe what I believe because it's what I desire to believe. I believe what I believe because it's what science, evidence, and logic causes me to believe.

February 14, 2011
9:22 am
Avatar
b0nez
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 79
Member Since:
January 3, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

"Im NOT the Father,I am here,and do the miracles fron THE ONE WHO SENT ME.I have seen Him,you have not yet saw His face."..He said "the one who sent me" over and over.Hardly says "I am God" ya think?

He said,he was the first,helping you,his BROTHER and show the way to get were he was the first to see.The only to see,then anyway.

I have seen what I call signs and miracles done by a person I trust with my life and trust with TRUTH.Never been a trick in them.Its amazing,find 50 4 leave clovers in one yard with your eyes closed? Often as she likes?..David coperfield wishes....Hand her family pictures in and envelope,blind,hidden,behind her back,yet know who is in the picture EVERY TIME for 5 hours straight,just so I could TRY like hell to "break it"..No luck!..Then the pictures went from one person to families,mixtures at holidays.99.99999% accuracy over a 5 hour period?Could even tell me how many in the pic was alive or "not here anymore"...Call it what you like,I saw things that make you question your own sanity "is this dream",yet it doesn't end.And gets stronger all the time...All in ones definition of sign of something bigger than self I suppose,or,just a trick.

Forget the bible though,look within youself.You know the truth.

You should always Give as Given.

You get what you give.

You are forgiven as you forgive.

You get the same compassion and understanding that you give.

Don't judge as you too will be judged.

Judge as you would want to be judged.Fair,wise,without anger.

You get as much help as you are willing to give and help another.

etc.

February 14, 2011
7:19 pm
Avatar
greeney2
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 10245
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Here we go again! :wall:

February 15, 2011
12:00 am
Avatar
qmark
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 1110
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sir-spams-alot

February 16, 2011
2:59 am
Avatar
at1with0
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 9243
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

An omnipotent being could prove its omnipotence.

Even "absolute proof" can be shrugged off.

I have yet to see absolute proof that you aren't one of those "AI" chat robots, though.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

February 17, 2011
6:19 am
Avatar
frrostedman
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 3815
Member Since:
September 4, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If Jesus moved a mountain for the Apostles, you would still be in the same state of unbelief today.

If Jesus moved a mountain for you personally, how fair is that for the next person who didn't witness and doesn't believe?

Performing undeniable miracles like walking on water, controlling the weather, making food--enough to feed thousands of people--appear out of thin air, raising the dead, healing terminally ill people instantly. These were things that convinced those that saw it. But no one outside the scope of direct witnesses will believe if they don't want to.

God performed direct, tangible, undeniable miracles to an entire civilization of people and just 40 years later when that generation of people died off, the same civilization of people fell back into a state of unbelief.

The bible gives a plethora of examples as to why your demands fall short and why they should not be entertained. It's pointless and the results--in and of themselves--are temporary.

Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man. - Albert Einstein

February 17, 2011
4:10 pm
Avatar
b0nez
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 79
Member Since:
January 3, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

"frrostedman" wrote: If Jesus moved a mountain for the Apostles, you would still be in the same state of unbelief today.

If Jesus moved a mountain for you personally, how fair is that for the next person who didn't witness and doesn't believe?

Performing undeniable miracles like walking on water, controlling the weather, making food--enough to feed thousands of people--appear out of thin air, raising the dead, healing terminally ill people instantly. These were things that convinced those that saw it. But no one outside the scope of direct witnesses will believe if they don't want to.

God performed direct, tangible, undeniable miracles to an entire civilization of people and just 40 years later when that generation of people died off, the same civilization of people fell back into a state of unbelief.

The bible gives a plethora of examples as to why your demands fall short and why they should not be entertained. It's pointless and the results--in and of themselves--are temporary.

Very Wise.

The fact you Live,perfection in a system,which is a bigger miracle than walking on water,and its in the mirror.If that doesn't cut it for ya,nothing will anyway.Our mind alone is a greater miracle than moving any rock,no matter the size!...As Nature is a miracle,perfection.Big,intricate...and perfect.Self reliant.

Every Man/Woman has their own miracle to see,to know....That they ARE a miracle.Just a tad to close to our face to see sometimes.

February 17, 2011
4:58 pm
Avatar
at1with0
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 9243
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Suppose eh stands next to god candidate X beside a mountain.
X moves the mountain.
Eh shrugs: "You're just an alien with a tractor beam." Sufficiently advanced technology appears to be a miracle to more primitive people. Try moving a mountain that doubles in mass every second.

X moves the ever increasing mass until eh stops being mildly impressed. "You drugged me and made me hallucinate that" eh says. X takes eh to a lab and checks his blood for toxins. "You falsified the lab reports." Then X calls the health inspector who oversees the lab. "The health inspector is on X's payroll, obviously." X shows eh his bank statement which shows he's overdrawn and couldn't have been employing the health inspector. "You must have been paying him in cash." The health inspector pulls out his pockets, emptying them and showing nothing but lint balls. "You already spent the cash," eh says.

This could go on forever, when someone appeals to desire so strongly as eh does. The desire for there to not be a God.

It really starts to look like the conversation between a focused person with a psychotic person. Psychotic people refuse to believe something different from what they believe no matter how much evidence there is. An infinite evidence threshold.

How dull. God can provide infinite evidence.

The next step, after realizing nothing like that is going to prove it to eh's satisfaction, is to ask eh what would he consider the evidence threshold that there is a God.

There are two possible outcomes of step 2. Eh states what X would have to demonstrate in order to prove X is God OR Eh states that there is nothing X can do that will prove to him that X is god. If the latter, we can stop due to eh's closed-mindlessness.

If the former, my guess is that since eh doesn't think this isn't hypothetical that he hasn't earnestly tried to think about trying to find God. I recommend allotting as much time as you can to the search. There should be some ground rules.
1. Do no read anything during this time.
2. Write as much as possible. Anything you wish, but also include a record of your well-being or lack thereof, and of dreams and odd phenomena.
3. Keep an open mind.
4. There's a problem to be solved. You're trying to figure out what X needs to do in order to prove to you that it is God. ((By rule 1, you're not reading the Bible and not even trying to determine which God X might be.)) That's your problem: invent God criteria and then make X who is standing here with us trying to prove it is God meet those criteria.
That's just homework. Lot's of kids eschew homework, especially when the deepest darkest and deepest brightest parts of self come up.
5. Be ready to unlearn something that you've learned. At the beginning of the lesson, during the lesson, and after the lesson. Also be ready to repeat the lesson many times.
6. Have no expectations. NOT expect nothing. For example, if you do manage to make it to heaven, don't expect pearly white gates with St. Peter standing in front.

Prayer can't hurt. "That I may find you and understand your nature."

"it is easy to grow crazy"

February 18, 2011
7:22 am
Avatar
sandra
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 3858
Member Since:
December 4, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

"qmark" wrote: Sir-spams-alot

And thats about it right. Laugh
Love you Q, you're just all that sometimes. 😎

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

February 18, 2011
8:03 am
Avatar
Halfabo
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 650
Member Since:
April 9, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

"at1with0" wrote: Suppose eh stands next to god candidate X beside a mountain.
X moves the mountain.
Eh shrugs: "You're just an alien with a tractor beam." Sufficiently advanced technology appears to be a miracle to more primitive people. Try moving a mountain that doubles in mass every second.

X moves the ever increasing mass until eh stops being mildly impressed. "You drugged me and made me hallucinate that" eh says. X takes eh to a lab and checks his blood for toxins. "You falsified the lab reports." Then X calls the health inspector who oversees the lab. "The health inspector is on X's payroll, obviously." X shows eh his bank statement which shows he's overdrawn and couldn't have been employing the health inspector. "You must have been paying him in cash." The health inspector pulls out his pockets, emptying them and showing nothing but lint balls. "You already spent the cash," eh says.

This could go on forever, when someone appeals to desire so strongly as eh does. The desire for there to not be a God.

I like this one better.

God floats Mt. Everest over E.H.'s head. E.H. says he's still not impressed. God shrugs, gives up and drops Everest.

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 288

Currently Online:
68 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

greeney2: 10245

bionic: 9870

Lashmar: 5289

tigger: 4576

rath: 4297

DIss0n80r: 4161

sandra: 3858

frrostedman: 3815

Wing-Zero: 3278

Tairaa: 2842

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 2

Members: 24233

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 31

Topics: 8751

Posts: 123587

Newest Members:

Alex Parrish, Sharp, Mikey Ites, Ananth, mexican narco, Vivi-Zizi, Vincent, kitty, linkon old

Administrators: John Greenewald: 593, blackvault: 1776