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Churches and the IRS?
August 27, 2010
7:18 am
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Nesaie
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I know many of the arguments between Jefferson and Madison were about keeping government and religion apart. Madison didn't want government in his religion and Jefferson didn't want religion in his government. But, what about churches and the IRS?

Most churches today, when donated to, a person gets a tax write off. Why is that? Does that allow the IRS to dictate what a church says and promotes?

I distrust all corporations and government ones especially, like the IRS. How do others feel about the IRS being mixed in with religion?

If I were a church goer, I'd try to find one that didn't give me a tax write off to donate and wasn't associated with the government.

Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky

August 27, 2010
7:35 am
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Hi Nesaie

"Render unto Caesar…" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ”) (Matthew 22:21).

The saying above being attributed to Jesus would have been the cornerstone of the concept of the separation of church and state.
To allow the "Tax deduction" which is directly connected with the state would seem to me to be a contradiction of the concept of the division of church and state.
But who is going to argue against the rule of Mamon and the self interest that this encourages.

Cheers

Malai5

August 27, 2010
8:02 am
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Nesaie
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Thanks malai for the input 😀

In this country, Caesar seems to think he owns everything, even our individual bodies.

Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky

August 27, 2010
8:24 am
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Halfabo
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"Nesaie" wrote: Thanks malai for the input 😀

In this country, Caesar seems to think he owns everything, even our individual bodies.

Just as he did in ancient Rome. Jesus' statement "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s" was a very radical thing to say at the time. Remember that Rome believed that Caesar was a god, so did Caesar.

August 27, 2010
8:38 am
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Nesaie
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What really scares me, is that this whole republic system was based on Rome.

But, I'm thinking that nature belongs to God, animals, plants, my body etc. So, Caesar doesn't get those. So...now that I'm thinking about it...the government doesn't really have any right to the parks?

We have a park in the city I live where, not only do my property taxes pay for it, but If I want to park a car there I have to pay for parking. I think it should be either/or, not both. Just another gripe I have.

Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky

August 27, 2010
6:48 pm
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qmark
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"Nesaie" wrote:
I know many of the arguments between Jefferson and Madison were about keeping government and religion apart. Madison didn't want government in his religion and Jefferson didn't want religion in his government.

Jefferson did not want a theocracy, but he had no problems with religious expression in government. Separation of church and state works best when it is taken in neither extreme.

"Nesaie" wrote:
But, what about churches and the IRS?

The IRS is evil. The church has no business jumping in bed with evil.

"Nesaie" wrote:
Most churches today, when donated to, a person gets a tax write off. Why is that? Does that allow the IRS to dictate what a church says and promotes?

Most churches apply for "501(C)(3)" which is not for profit status with the IRS, which is tax exempt. When you, as an individual, donate to a non profit organization it can be claimed on your taxes. Here's the problem as I see it; if a church doesn't want to lose their tax exempt status then they better not "tick off" the IRS and they better adhere to the IRS regulations regarding tax exempt organizations.

This puts the government above God because the two will come into conflict, and if the church is more concerned about keeping their tax exempt status, they will follow the dictates of the government than the dictates of God. This is evil in my opinion. No church should take part in 501(C)(3) in my opinion.

"Nesaie" wrote:
I distrust all corporations and government ones especially, like the IRS. How do others feel about the IRS being mixed in with religion?

What does darkness have in common with light? I'm with you 1000 % on this one, although, probably for different reasons.

August 28, 2010
11:01 am
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Nesaie
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Wow! 😯 It really is the "end of the world as we know it". First, frosty agreed with a post I made. Now qmark did?!?! 😮 In the religious forum, no less! The next thing you know, Halfabo will be agreeing with me in the religious section too. That would be a fark trifecta. 😀

Jefferson did not want a theocracy, but he had no problems with religious expression in government. Separation of church and state works best when it is taken in neither extreme.

And I agree with that. I have no problem with the 10 commandments or prayers in restaurants. It is my choice to partake or not to.

I used to categorize atheists as a type of religion, until the atheists around here told me differently. So then, I got to thinking...oops 😉 then atheists aren't protected under the Constitution. The Bill of Rights are from our Creator, our God of Nature, if a person doesn't believe in That which Is, then they don't have any Natural rights. They may even be anti-freedom? Maybe that is why the commies required their slaves to be atheists? Just thoughts here...

The IRS is evil. The church has no business jumping in bed with evil.

Agreed. 'nuf said.

Most churches apply for "501(C)(3)" which is not for profit status with the IRS, which is tax exempt. When you, as an individual, donate to a non profit organization it can be claimed on your taxes. Here's the problem as I see it; if a church doesn't want to lose their tax exempt status then they better not "tick off" the IRS and they better adhere to the IRS regulations regarding tax exempt organizations.

This puts the government above God because the two will come into conflict, and if the church is more concerned about keeping their tax exempt status, they will follow the dictates of the government than the dictates of God. This is evil in my opinion. No church should take part in 501(C)(3) in my opinion.

Scary...I'm agreeing with you again. I'll go beyond just churches being irs exempt. I'll move to the industries, like the cancer industry that makes money. I'll move to industries like feeding the poor in Africa, that make money. Or these bloody ngos that work for the un. They all do the opposite of what they claim!

What does darkness have in common with light? I'm with you 1000 % on this one, although, probably for different reasons.

Darkness is absence of light. But, both are on the same electromagnetic spectrum.

OK qmark, I'm going to start calling you Mr. Madison now. You needed a new nickname. 😀

Me, I'm a Deist because of Thomas Paine, not Jefferson, although some Deists do indeed claim him. I think the Unitarians have a better documented right to him than Deists. Though, Deists and all folk were welcomed to Unitarian churches. They like the debates. 😀

Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen... - Zbigniew Brezhinsky

August 28, 2010
12:05 pm
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sandra
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"Nesaie" wrote: I used to categorize atheists as a type of religion, until the atheists around here told me differently. So then, I got to thinking...oops 😉 then atheists aren't protected under the Constitution. The Bill of Rights are from our Creator, our God of Nature, if a person doesn't believe in That which Is, then they don't have any Natural rights. They may even be anti-freedom?

That just deserves to be read more than once.
Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

“Living backwards!” Alice repeated in great
astonishment. “I never heard of such a thing!”
“—but there’s one great advantage in it, that one’s
memory works both ways.”
— Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

August 28, 2010
2:12 pm
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Cole_Trickle
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😆 😆

Exactly what happens when common everyday people ( out of the loop ) ponder, or try to decipher that which has been passed down for centuries. Yet most all are left to wonder how anyone could ever fall for such ridiculous word of mouth.

You're speaking of something that used to be communicated via a piece of parchment tied to a stone and tossed back and forth---now they simply use one of the latest electronic devices of choice. 😉

Must you ask why Rome is it's own, and where all that money really goes. Can I bring up the Vatican and their piles of Gold--their own Police-guard or other? Would that complicate the issue beyond reason.

Who gets a seat with ANY ELECTED LEADER at any time anywhere? Who is this guy again? 😆
I'm I being too indirect?

Bring Em All Home Cole

August 29, 2010
3:31 am
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"Nesaie" wrote: Thanks malai for the input 😀

In this country, Caesar seems to think he owns everything, even our individual bodies.

Nessaie,

The purpose of separation of church and state is to prevent the fleecing of the public by government in cooperation with the church as was so commonly done in Europe of which we have ample records. The kings and the church at Rome in cahoots with each other. Or conversly the Anglican Church and the English government. Anglican is nothing but
English Catholic where the new pope is in Westminster.

The purpose of separation of church and state is to prevent this government/church excesses through government misusing the law.

Religion is the ultimate political power and always will be.

The difference now days...now that we are so educated and enlightened... is that we are so dumbed down that we are not able to recognize that government, by way of enlightenment policies, is trying to bring back the olde systems of feudalism/royalty, absolute control by way of a government religion. THis is nothing but a return to the olde systems.

Churchs should be tax immune and not tax exempt. Churchs should not have tax numbers. Having tax munbers makes them corporations and corporations are a creature of the state and you now have no separation. Both the government and the churchs are lying and deceiving the public on this. The churchs and the government are in bed together here and not telling the people this is happening. THis is nothing more than the further dumbing down of the public.

Notice that none of this obviousness is taught in public schools or on the news media who brag of looking out for us. Their investment is in our ignorance such that none of us think outside the box of where they want us to think.

When you understand this, it becomes obious that government or politics is itself a religion with rules and conduct not known by most people who become subject to it. Royalty.

Good post on your part. Teach others to think outside the box of this kind of institutionally sponsored stupid. Teach them to think outside the box.

I have been asking the same question for some time now. Well done Nessiae...well done.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Note as well that church and state together is also what you find in the orient where the emperors were also gods. Absolute power. Government simply wants a return ot absolute power
to build a Eden here on earth at public expense or the public purse. The very best form of governemnt that natural men by their own intelligence can devise is tyranny.

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