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Connecticut school shooting: 18 children among 27 dead
December 19, 2012
6:07 pm
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at1with0
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"capricorn" wrote: [quote="at1with0"]Certainly one can't look at that spreadsheet, which could easily have been fabricated, and say either way that gun control has or hasn't been effective.

As I said before, I've provided the link to the spreadsheet below the image. It is not fabricated, it came from the Australian Government. If the gov't if fabricating statistics then there is a more serious problem going on.

But I agree, you cannot look at the stats and say the gun control has or has not been effective. There simply is no proof that gun control provides the desired effect.

You trust the Australian government more than I do, it seems. 😀

However, one can simply turn to the drug culture or "the war on drugs" to evaluate the effect that criminalizing something has on society.

Is your point here that there is no point in criminalizing something that people are just gonna do anyway?

"at1with0" wrote:
Sexual assault and kidnapping and robbery and homicide has to be subdivided into two categories (at least): those involving guns and those not involving guns.

This is where I disagree and the crux of my argument; a crime is a crime whether committed with a gun or not. If you take away the guns that is fine, but if people continue to kill or rob or whatever, what is the difference it is done with a gun or not? In the grand scheme of things, nothing would have really been solved.

I think analyzing the data to study the effectiveness of gun control, one HAS to subdivide the data into at least two categories, crimes committed with a gun and without. The difference between crimes with guns and crimes without using guns is going to be the only thing that would prove or disprove the effectiveness of gun control. As it is, the spreadsheet is useless in its inconclusiveness.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

December 19, 2012
6:18 pm
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at1with0
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"DIss0n80r" wrote: Stop feeding these losers attention and dramatizing their choice to mass murder. It's exacerbating the problem.

I imagine there are people literally feeding off said dramatizations of mass murderers.

"it is easy to grow crazy"

December 19, 2012
6:21 pm
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En-Lugal
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"capricorn" wrote: This is where I disagree and the crux of my argument; a crime is a crime whether committed with a gun or not. If you take away the guns that is fine, but if people continue to kill or rob or whatever, what is the difference it is done with a gun or not? In the grand scheme of things, nothing would have really been solved.

This is the heart of the issue, Liberals think that banning guns will result in a utopia where everyone is nice to each other and crime disappears. Anyway, the President is on at the moment and being rather vague about what he plans to do. I'm guessing at some point in the near future we will see a Bill with rather vague wording and broad sweeping powers that will be introduced in the House and Senate.

The modern definition of ‘racist’ is someone who’s winning an argument with a liberal.

December 19, 2012
6:31 pm
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at1with0
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"En-Lugal" wrote: This is the heart of the issue, Liberals think that banning guns will result in a utopia where everyone is nice to each other and crime disappears.

Who thinks that??

"it is easy to grow crazy"

December 19, 2012
6:38 pm
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capricorn
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"at1with0" wrote: Is your point here that there is no point in criminalizing something that people are just gonna do anyway?

Well, I dont want to get off on a tangent or anything, but I do believe that people are just going to do what they want to do, whether something is illegal or not.

But in regards to this conversation, my point here is that Guns are not the problem, there are various other factors which contribute to overall violence.
Education (or lack thereof)
Prescription Drugs
The Mentally Ill
The desensitizing of culture (In relation to Violence in Media).

Again, you can outlaw guns, but psychopaths will turn to other means of violence. Look at what the terrorists did on 9/11. Should we ban airplanes because of it? Of course not! The core of the problem isn't airplanes, it is something else.

"En-Lugal" wrote: Anyway, the President is on at the moment and being rather vague about what he plans to do

When is he not vague about something? All he does is say something without saying anything at all.

"a free society depends on a virtuous and moral people."

December 19, 2012
6:49 pm
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DIss0n80r
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That's insane. People are just gonna do what they want to do, anyway? So laws are pointless? You're a fruit loop.

I'm pro-2nd Amendment; I don't want guns banned. But I know there's more that could be done to help reduce gun violence, if it weren't for militant paranoid people stubbornly resisting the slightest change.

Deaths like these are on their conscience.

"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

December 19, 2012
6:54 pm
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at1with0
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"capricorn" wrote: [quote="at1with0"]Is your point here that there is no point in criminalizing something that people are just gonna do anyway?

Well, I dont want to get off on a tangent or anything, but I do believe that people are just going to do what they want to do, whether something is illegal or not.

But in regards to this conversation, my point here is that Guns are not the problem, there are various other factors which contribute to overall violence.
Education (or lack thereof)
Prescription Drugs
The Mentally Ill
The desensitizing of culture (In relation to Violence in Media).

Again, you can outlaw guns, but psychopaths will turn to other means of violence. Look at what the terrorists did on 9/11. Should we ban airplanes because of it? Of course not! The core of the problem isn't airplanes, it is something else.

I agree but my example wouldn't have been airplanes. You picked a bad example because air travel has been tightly regulated by the TSA. That's PERHAPS why another similar attack has not yet occurred in the time since 2001. So while we shouldn't even consider a ban on air travel, we do need more security than what existed prior to 2001. Perhaps there needs to be a similar agency for gun use that simultaneously respects and adheres to the 2nd amendment but also adds a lot of security measures aimed (no pun intended) at reducing the frequency of crimes committed with guns.

Instead of airplanes used as weapons I would have used the example of knives. Because many people get stabbed and can otherwise make a nefarious use out of sharp objects, should we make them illegal?

You cited education and other things but do you have evidence to show that there is a causal factor between the things you cited and violence? Take the mentally ill category for instance. Does mental illness CAUSE violence? If it did, then why are so many "mentally ill" existing without ever having committed a violent crime? You would also need to be more careful about what type of mental illness you're talking about. There would be CORRELATION between some mental illnesses and violent crimes but not all mental illnesses (such as bulimia) that would correlate with violent crime.

And what would we do even if mental illness was a CAUSAL factor in violent crime? You know there is no cure for most mental illnesses. You wouldn't suggest that they all be heavily medicated because prescription drugs are on your list, too. So what should we do about mental illness, let alone cultural desensitization?

"En-Lugal" wrote: Anyway, the President is on at the moment and being rather vague about what he plans to do

When is he not vague about something? All he does is say something without saying anything at all.

When is ANY politician not vague about something?? 😀

"it is easy to grow crazy"

December 19, 2012
6:57 pm
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at1with0
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"DIss0n80r" wrote: That's insane. People are just gonna do what they want to do, anyway? So laws are pointless? You're a fruit loop.

[Image Can Not Be Found]

"it is easy to grow crazy"

December 19, 2012
7:00 pm
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DIss0n80r
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"at1with0" wrote: [quote="DIss0n80r"]That's insane. People are just gonna do what they want to do, anyway? So laws are pointless? You're a fruit loop.

[Image Can Not Be Found]

+1

"I can conceive of nothing in religion, science, or philosophy, that is anything more than the proper thing to wear, for a while." ~ Charles Fort

December 19, 2012
7:04 pm
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rath
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"capricorn" wrote: Rath, sometimes I wonder why I even respond to you.

The fraser institude is a credible organization. The science is there, the facts are there... closing your eyes and saying otherwise is simply ignorant.

But lets get right to the point

[Image Can Not Be Found]
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violen ... ctims.html

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

You say that the Fraser institute is a credible organization, yet you abandon your use of their site & instead use the link to the site i provided . Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

For shame.

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