NORAD: CONUS, CANR and ANR | Freedom of Information Act | Forum

A A A
Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
NORAD: CONUS, CANR and ANR
March 30, 2015
1:05 pm
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

 

NORAD tracks thousands of objects every year within the AOR (Area of Responsibility)being North America. Yet trying to obtain this information specifically concerning the exact numbers of tracks and their sub categories is proving to be difficult due to the methods needed to obtain the data and where the data is located. NORAD shares some database systems with USNORTHCOM, these are duel systems, and the data on these systems if releasable can be accessed by the US FOIA and the ATIP Canadian Access to Information Act (Only a Canadian citizen can use this Act). Yet information, data pertaining concerning Air Space Management, i.e.(CONUS, CANR and ANR airspace) anything concerning tracks detected, intercepted, number of scrambles, Tracks of Interest, Unknown Tracks, Instructions concerning intercept procedures, are only available on the NORAD Enterprise Network. This data base system was by a response from USNORTHCOM a "Canadian System" and only accessible via a ATIP request which can only be used by a Canadian citizen. A ATIP was filed and initially they informed a Canadian citizen that the information requested was not under the purview of Canada but NORAD.

NORAD is a bi national Command, and not subject to the US FOIA nor the ATIP. Yet joint instructions state they will follow the spirit of both acts. The problem is, a US and Alaskan citizens cannot access data of air traffic threats or incidents detected by NORAD over US and Alaskan airspace but potentially a Canadian citizen can, even though by an official omission it is under NORAD purview. So how many threats where detected is none of a US citizens business nor an Alaskan business, and it seems out of all the tax payers who are paying for NORAD, a Canadian citizen is getting a better deal. NORAD seems to consider that US and Alaskan citizens have no legal way of accessing this information on the threats faced to their citizens of the US and Alaska, and frankly doesn't consider it any of their business.

But this is an on going affair and we shall see if records can eventually be released. It surprises me that US citizens have a serious lack of interest of what is going on above their heads, every time you take an internal and external flights you are not informed of the facts of the dangers that are apparent. As I said to NORAD Public Affairs "you reap what you sow".

April 3, 2015
3:17 am
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Finally after near two years of banter with the USNORTHCOM, USNORTHCOM/NORAD PA, the OSD/DOD has confirmed that NORAD is subject to the US FOIA, since it is a bi national entity!!

 

I have been given false information, inaccurate information, and down right deceitful information and explanations, from US NORTHCOM. I have filed numerous requests for information now we shall see.

April 3, 2015
5:02 am
Avatar
John Greenewald
North Hollywood, California
Admin
Forum Posts: 415
Member Since:
March 10, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Great work, magonia17.

Just wanted to clarify. I got the record you sent over to me (maybe you would consider posting it here?) regarding this. Keep in mind, although confusing (and I don't claim to understand all of it) USNORTHCOM is different than NORAD. NORAD is a bi-national command, and is exempt from the FOIA. However, USNORTHCOM is not. HOWEVER, even though both installations are pretty much next door, USNORTHCOM will only process FOIAs and records under their control. I believe, NORAD records are primarily (not all) exempt.

Can I ask, was there another letter that said NORAD was subject to the FOIA? NORAD tried "in good faith" to honor the FOIA, but you can tell when they don't want to answer you, they will just say they aren't subject to it. It's why it was such a "coincidence" that all CIRVIS reports filed under AFMAN 10-206 that I found many years ago, were all forwarded to them.

Look forward to hearing from you!

Sincerely,

 

John Greenewald, Jr.

The Black Vault
http://www.theblackvault.com 

 

Government Secrets
http://www.governmentsecrets.com

 

Phone: (805) 32-VAULT

April 3, 2015
8:59 am
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

NNCI35-130 dated 9th April 2012, 4.11, 4.1.1.1 states: Requests for information from the media. civic organizations, or general public will be answered in a timely manner by NORAD and/or public USNORTHCOM public affairs. Information will be made fully and readily available, consistent with statutory and regulatory requirements, unless its release is precluded by current and valid security classification. The provisions of the Freedom of Information Act will be supported in both letter and spirit." This is a joint Instruction (USNORTHCOM an NORAD and it is mandatory. A letter from the OSD appeal office confirmed it is a bi national organisation. Further anther individual has filed a ATIP (Canadian) for NORAD records and they have processed it. It is currently being reviewed under the FOIA (USNORTHCOM).

NORAD has in the passed processed requests under the FOIA and the ATIP so I was right that NEN (NORAD Enterprise Network) is a NORAD system and not has USNORTHCOM claimed a Canadian system, hence NORAD is applicable to the spirit of both acts.

April 3, 2015
9:02 am
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Also John NEN is operated by the Canadians. NORAD shares database systems with USNORTHCOM. NJ-3 NORAD Operations Directorate, J33 (Airspace Management) is responsible for tracking reports. NEN is only accessible by the Canadians, and not by USNORTHCOM. Yet NEN is still a NORAD system, hence subject to both acts.

April 3, 2015
2:00 pm
Avatar
John Greenewald
North Hollywood, California
Admin
Forum Posts: 415
Member Since:
March 10, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well, you've done your homework, so I am not knocking it at all! Well done!

However, "both letter and spirit" I think is they key here, and it's the bad part of this. In spirit, does not mean, it's the letter of the law.

I have a stack of NORAD rejections where they simply don't care about the FOIA, or the spirit of it.

You mind if I refile, referencing your appeal #, and see if that convinces them to process?

Sincerely,

 

John Greenewald, Jr.

The Black Vault
http://www.theblackvault.com 

 

Government Secrets
http://www.governmentsecrets.com

 

Phone: (805) 32-VAULT

April 3, 2015
2:27 pm
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

John Greenewald said
Well, you've done your homework, so I am not knocking it at all! Well done!

However, "both letter and spirit" I think is they key here, and it's the bad part of this. In spirit, does not mean, it's the letter of the law.

I have a stack of NORAD rejections where they simply don't care about the FOIA, or the spirit of it.

You mind if I refile, referencing your appeal #, and see if that convinces them to process?

Well the DOD OSD requested them to search records from NORAD. NORAD has never been subject to the US FOIA, nor ATIA but records have been released concerning tracks, and unknown tracks in the past, including Alaskan NORAD region. I have filed a lot of requests to USNORTHCOM and they have confirmed they are the point of contact for NORAD. The spirit of the acts is the same phase they have used in older NORAD Instructions concerning FOIA and ATIA requests. They did search and release materials. I have copies of some of these records in my possession. NORAD use to response directly but since the integration of USNORTHCOM that has changed. It use to be associated with US SPACECOM at one time. NORAD is the only bi national Command in the world. I trust this clarifies things for you. It has taken a lot of hard work, time, and effort to obtain all this.

April 3, 2015
3:01 pm
Avatar
John Greenewald
North Hollywood, California
Admin
Forum Posts: 415
Member Since:
March 10, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sounds like MAYBE they have changed their tone about the whole thing.

When I was fighting for records from them, they simply flat denied being subject to FOIA (or the spirit of it) and gave a blanket statement there were no CIRVIS records there. I've sent a few FOIA's to that corner since, but again, always kind of falling flat since I get the "bi-national command" statement.

Again, this was quite a few years ago, so I will re-visit based on your luck.

Thanks again for the input. I believe you've seen this, but for anyone else following this thread, CIRVIS reports have been denied to exist (to me, anyway) by NORAD, however, the Canadian government released them through the Access to Information Act. They are at the top of this archive: http://www.theblackvault.com/d.....reports/ 

Sincerely,

 

John Greenewald, Jr.

The Black Vault
http://www.theblackvault.com 

 

Government Secrets
http://www.governmentsecrets.com

 

Phone: (805) 32-VAULT

April 3, 2015
4:12 pm
Avatar
magonia17
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 189
Member Since:
December 2, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

John Greenewald said
Sounds like MAYBE they have changed their tone about the whole thing.

When I was fighting for records from them, they simply flat denied being subject to FOIA (or the spirit of it) and gave a blanket statement there were no CIRVIS records there. I've sent a few FOIA's to that corner since, but again, always kind of falling flat since I get the "bi-national command" statement.

Again, this was quite a few years ago, so I will re-visit based on your luck.

Thanks again for the input. I believe you've seen this, but for anyone else following this thread, CIRVIS reports have been denied to exist (to me, anyway) by NORAD, however, the Canadian government released them through the Access to Information Act. They are at the top of this archive: http://www.theblackvault.com/d.....reports/ 

I am pursuing the data the USAF stopped transmitting the reports to NORAD. The USAF have admitted that NORAD "no longer acquired the reports". I have sent you the two relevant Instructions which apply to NORAD and both are mandatory and current. 

April 3, 2015
4:20 pm
Avatar
John Greenewald
North Hollywood, California
Admin
Forum Posts: 415
Member Since:
March 10, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

LOL. See that is where I find this completely contradictory. NORAD (in a signed letter) stated that in following the "spirit" of the FOIA (I believe their wording was "in good faith") searched for CIRVIS reports and found none. So, you are saying, you have a letter saying they (NORAD) did collect the CIRVIS reports, but no longer do? 

(Feel free to post images and files on the board as well -- as others who read, but don't post, may find it of interest). 

Sincerely,

 

John Greenewald, Jr.

The Black Vault
http://www.theblackvault.com 

 

Government Secrets
http://www.governmentsecrets.com

 

Phone: (805) 32-VAULT

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 288

Currently Online:
53 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

greeney2: 10115

bionic: 9870

at1with0: 9242

Lashmar: 5289

tigger: 4576

rath: 4297

DIss0n80r: 4161

sandra: 3858

frrostedman: 3815

Wing-Zero: 3271

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 2

Members: 23032

Moderators: 0

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 8

Forums: 31

Topics: 8313

Posts: 121085

Newest Members:

alice paul, Michael Jay, Heidi_Steindel, ajumovel, Paul, Fabio_Sartori, iboru, azyselyji, Scott P., Helena_Matias

Administrators: John Greenewald: 415, blackvault: 1777